Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 5.56/223 LACKS PUNCH/knockdown??????

A good lesson right there.

Shoot one shot at a time. Shoot as often as needed.

BMT

If you are going to buy one weapon to issue your troops, it's hard to beat the versatility of the M16 with quality ammo (mk262)...

AK - less accurate, heavier ammo, shorter effective range, no optic

FAL - heavier ammo, optic mounting issues

M16 / Grendel - heavier ammo, lower mag capacity, reliability issues?

M14 - heavier ammo, shorter effective range (aimed fire), lower mag capacity, optic mounting issue

I got this one (a 308). It be my truck gun.



Solves lots of problems.

BMT

Some of the "M4" type AR10's coming out, like the one BMT just bought, have got to be interesting in this context.

Accurate.

Reliable (Mine was anyway)

Easy to mount optics.

How's the blast and recoil, BMT? Let's go find out. We'll do a direct comparo of short M14's and short AR10's. :-)

No problem with blast and recoil.

I am shooting 147 grainers over 45 grains of R-15.

BMT

Well it and it's ammo are heavier than an M16, it's louder, it has more muzzle blast and it it recoils more. It solves some but not all of the M14's issues. The Army at least has adopted a large M16 type weapon in 7.62x51 as a semi auto sniper rifle.

One of the great things about the M16 family is how easy they are to shoot well for anyone of any skill level. That's ergonomics, recoil and weight all rolled into one.

Urgent Fury
Just Cause
Desert Storm

Rangers Lead The Way

Mike

Many valid points, but as we knwo everything is a compromise.

Power is better, but more power increases weight of the ammo and weapon.

If I recall correctly, the standard issue ammunition supply is 9 thirty round magazines of 5.56 (270 rounds). Assuming that a Loaded round weighs 170 grains that equals 6.55 pounds of ammo.(270 x 170 / 7000 = 6.55)

Again, If I recall correctly, the M-14 ammunition supply was 10 twenty round magazines (200 rounds). Assuming that a Loaded round weighs 375 grains that equals 10.7 pounds of ammo (200 x 375 / 7000 = 10.7 pounds).

The difference in ammo weight is a little over 3 pounds. My rifle (pictured above) weighs little under 1.5 pounds more than a standard M-4. Total cost in weight is about 4.5 pounds (ignoring differences in the weight of 223 vs. 308 magazines--I did not weigh those).

An average infantryman carries about 65 pounds of gear. So, the switch to the 308 DISPLACES 4.5 pounds of gear. (The 65 pound figure has been remarkably constant over the centuries -- technology has enabled us to get more/better stuff into the 65 pounds).

In general, I prefer the power over "gadgets". But I am in the minority in this matter. Our army LOVES gadgets, and it is a very fine army, so I cannot complain.

For my uses, the 308 gets the nod, and I let go of the "gadgets".

BMT

Thank you for your service.

But, Rangers don't lead. They drop in, sneak around, report the intel, and watch as the Marines get all shot up. . . . .

At least that is what the Marines tell me . . . .

BMT

[quote=jimmypgeorgia how many firefights have you been in Tacticalsquirrel? [/quote]

My paycheck comes from carrying a firearm as a LEO. I was assigned SWAT duties for the part-time team of one agency I worked for. I have not fired lethal shots thankfully, however I have been in numerous situations involving lethal force. I was a mere fraction of an inch of completeing my trigger pull on a youth with a gun who's actions stopped before I fired. I had another where I was on a scene providing cover while the callout was getting organized. My duties also were Less Lethal and the situation developed where I had to let the long gun down on the sling and begin pulling the trigger on beanbags. His actions were not stopped by my 1st shot and escalated and needed lethal force at the same time I fired another bean bag. I can recount more, but the fact is that I have been in enough entries and situations and have had extensive training in my field in areas of the patrol rifle, SWAT, and others.

Hope this explains the background from where I develop my positions. Anything I type I can back up, and I tend not to post much except in areas I do have the ability to show sources to back up what I say. As you may have noticed, the patrol rifle is an area I have a lot of passion for and try to clear up any inaccurate info that floats around the web when its worth the time to correct.

Only Marines I saw in Grenada were flying Cobra's and fast-movers!
Each of those Gold Stars in my jump-wings come from being the tip of the spear!
We were first into the thick of it.
Now DS was where I truly came to appreciate my Marine Brethren!!
I've been on hand for M193 5.56mm hits from 5-feet to 335-meters(my spotter taking up slack as I reloaded 25Oct1983).
Mike

IIRC, the basic load is 210 rounds of 5.56. Been a while and memory is a bit foggy.

Every single time I went into a combat zone,my ruck was loaded with a wee bit more but every single troop in my squad had his seven 30-round mags and at least eight to ten bandoleer's in their rucks.

Mike

My paycheck comes from carrying a firearm as a LEO. I was assigned SWAT duties for the part-time team of one agency I worked for. I have not fired lethal shots thankfully, however I have been in numerous situations involving lethal force. I was a mere fraction of an inch of completeing my trigger pull on a youth with a gun who's actions stopped before I fired. I had another where I was on a scene providing cover while the callout was getting organized. My duties also were Less Lethal and the situation developed where I had to let the long gun down on the sling and begin pulling the trigger on beanbags. His actions were not stopped by my 1st shot and escalated and needed lethal force at the same time I fired another bean bag. I can recount more, but the fact is that I have been in enough entries and situations and have had extensive training in my field in areas of the patrol rifle, SWAT, and others.

Hope this explains the background from where I develop my positions. Anything I type I can back up, and I tend not to post much except in areas I do have the ability to show sources to back up what I say. As you may have noticed, the patrol rifle is an area I have a lot of passion for and try to clear up any inaccurate info that floats around the web when its worth the time to correct. [/quote]

then the answer is that Balvarik is more knowledgable on this subject.

Right... so basic load was in fact 210 rounds. Combat load was dependent on mission. IIRC, they teach that in either PLDC or BNCOC. Point was that BMT's weight figure would be off by about 1.5 pounds based on the incorrect basic load of 5.56 in his comparison.

Now toss in that AT-4(LAW's in my day or 90mm RCL rounds),demo-charges,spare barrel for the 240,ammo for the 7.62 and any other mission critical gear!
Why do you think that we had each of our squad never have less than 50lbs in their ruck when we had rucksack runs!



Travel-Light Freeze at night!

Mike

Yep I understand all of that including the ruck runs, force marches and the LAW's too. Ran many a squad and couple of PLT's. We probably got to the gulf around the same time.

Thank you also for your service.

Yes, a buddy of mine from College also saw Grenada ("We just dropped in for a visit" he would say--but not much else).

But I don't see how that excuses you from good natured ribbing . . . .

My military career was highlighted by three attempts at volunteering and a fatal wound suffered at Oakland MEPS.

My football injuries were enough to keep me out after Gramm-Rudman passed in 1986.

Today, they'd pay me a bonus to join. . . . .

Timing is everything they say, eh?

BMT

stumbled across this and there is plenty of info out there for those who will do the research and choose to beleive what they find by testing things out for themselves and using some common sense.

"This just goes to show how solidly imbedded some of these beliefs are, when they have no basis in fact."

That's funny right there.

Dang it. I knew that.

BMT