Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 5.56/223 LACKS PUNCH/knockdown??????

AGREED, I the amo weight for 210 rounds is 5.1 pounds or so.

Makes the 308 based AR a 6 pound heavier weapon system (displacing 6 pounds of other gear).

BMT

[quote=jimmypgeorgia

then the answer is that Balvarik is more knowledgable on this subject. [/quote]

Answer? To what? How have Balvarik and I or even you and I conflicted here? You seemed perturbed about something.

What basis do you have to determine what knowledge I do or don't hold? How many shootings have you witnessed? I've seen results of plenty of shootings and death investigations in my career. As in still smelling the blood in the air and tracing what the bullet did. Your question of firefights is very narrow in scope. Your tone implies that any person that has not actually gotten to pull a trigger in combat does not have a say in this discussion. By your standards how do you rate to be able to post in it?

What military or LEO training and experience do you have? How do you think I'm out of line on ANY of my information, and then back it up sir.

The 5.56 with the proper ammo does just fine. BTDT.

Throat is not a cartridge dimension. It is a chamber dimension. Try to pay attention.

Yep.

But it affects pressure and if SAAMI says not to interchange them due to possible pressure problems then I'd... oh nevermind do what you want to do.

BTW, I did pay attention, my first response was about chambers not cartridges and pressure problems that can result.

Answer? To what? How have Balvarik and I or even you and I conflicted here? You seemed perturbed about something.

What basis do you have to determine what knowledge I do or don't hold? How many shootings have you witnessed? I've seen results of plenty of shootings and death investigations in my career. As in still smelling the blood in the air and tracing what the bullet did. Your question of firefights is very narrow in scope. Your tone implies that any person that has not actually gotten to pull a trigger in combat does not have a say in this discussion. By your standards how do you rate to be able to post in it?

What military or LEO training and experience do you have? How do you think I'm out of line on ANY of my information, and then back it up sir. [/quote]



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LEO have the great advantage of "post-mortum" forensics after a shooting.
Military needs it out of action now and on to the next group of targets.

The advantage of use of different types of bullets lies with LEO.
Military are governed by what the JAG lawyers interpret and leave us with a very limited selection.

I've been witness to hits with M193 and M855 5.56mm on combatants.
To me it seemed that the old M16A1 with M193 was a better at incapacitating than the M16A2 with M855.
Also the M9 needed four to six torso hits to obtain what the M1911A1 would do with one!

Mike

Although I have used 5.56 to take out a couple toyota pickups, I will admit that it lacked the punch /knockdown that the TOW missile did when it hit the truck.

Roger That!
Best stop ever was by a M551 from the 3rd/73rd!
152mm HE.
Nuff said.
Mike

TWR, do you also read manufacturers instructions? The saami thing is a CYA. Many manufacturers say you can't shoot reloads in their guns either.

The difference in the chambers is no different than the chamber cuts of the same 30-06 but by different makers... Throat length or freebore itself can increase or decrease pressures quite a bit. Thats never really paid attention too by many either.

Bottom line we are arguing about chamber dimensions when the real question is knockdown.... I stand by the fact that if folks get up from a 06 hit, then there are other factors at work some times.

I would not want to be center punched by any of the mentioned rounds.

A good friend of mine told a story from 'Nam about a firefight... he was carrying an M14... the bad guys were hopped up on something (or at least the one in question was) and my friend said he was literally blowing parts off this guy's body but he just kept coming, wouldn't go down, so my friend jumped out of his foxhole and basically dismembered him with a bayonet.

They sent him to the rear for a while after that...

If you had a repeatable static target discussions like this would be easier.

In hunting I choose to err on the side of large, just in case. But thats not combat type scenario, where I"d rather have the choice of using more ammo the way I want to. IE center punch a normal target and they could go down, I"ve still got (weight wise) a round left over compared to a larger round. Now if I have to I can double tap or worse. BUt if the first one puts em down, I have spare ammo left... comparatively speaking.

For the other end of the spectrum... well same thing I heard in Korea except it was the 06 not the 308... if the 06 can't take em down on the first shot.... a newer round between the power of the 223 and 308 isn't going to be of value either. Much like your story.

There is the value of a standard round in combat too.. if we are the only country to have 6.8 spc.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7NDGWVF9Fc

stops effectively

BMT

Spunky, I'd say. She also had enough sense to keep the firearm pointed essentially in the same direction as she started off shooting, not easy when you're doing the "I'm AM going to fall on my azz" dance.

She gets and "E" for effort...............

I was told this from a reputable Marine a few years back that the reason the USA chose the 5.56 MM or 223 Rem is because it doesnt kill well and therefore every time you wound an enemy you just tied up many more of them to deal with the wounded,ive killed many coyotes with a 223 Rem. most dead in their tracks but Ive also had a couple that I thought I put a good hit on them and they vanished never to be seen again.............

A common story and indeed some people in the sevices have stated that. I heard it in the Army in the 80's.

We do Rost it's called ballistic gelatin-lol. We have a bunch of representative "wounds" in ballistic gelatin from 5.56 M193 and M855, M80 7.62, Mk262 mod 2 5.56, 6.5 Grendal and 6.8 SPC.

We also have stories of coyotes taking .223 hits and running off, deer taking .308 hitsd a disappearing, people taking 5.56, 7.62 and even .30-06 hits and keeping their feet. It's good fodder for an argument.

All these folks that fail to die when shot with 5.56

Where are they? Do the black helos pick them all up for experiments? <g>

Most of the BS is propogated by internet heros. I am willing to bet that better than 99% of whom have never been in a firefight. The same can be said for the average soldier who never leaves a base but comes back all salty about their time in Iraq or Afghanistan. Here is a news flash, only a very small minority of regular military ever sees combat. They may hear a mortar round or two while on their monsterous bases, thats it. 90% will never leave a FOB or even hear a small arms shot fired in anger, let alone be involved. Yet these are the same kids that come back and tell all these wild stories about the 5.56 not working.

The subject of the 5.56 comes up a lot. I can tell you from first hand experience that it works. The ball ammo is not great but it still balls dudes up. We do not need a different cartridge. We need something other than ball ammo. The 77gr MK262 open tip match is a great bullet and works well. It or some other open tip projectile needs to be standard issue.

The same bullcrap about how poorly the 5.56 is as a combat round is shoveled by the same retards who say the gas system on the M4 is bad.
When you have incompetent and poorly trained people who treat all their gear like crap and are more concerned with their Ipods and Gameboys instead of the rifles and radios and other gear you have problems with all the gear. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard some troop complaining about how messed up this or that is. Usually these same troops look like a bag of crap with their uniforms and gear all jacked up.

Proffesional soldiers and operators don't seem to have nearly as many problems with the exact same gear.