Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Pooped out lott

BUT NOT JUST YET!!!

I went to the range this a.m. On the way I stopped by my favorite gun shop. Guess what? They had Barnes NEW manual in... NUMBER 4! So before any shooting I was able to compare apples to apples (at least MacIntosh with Cortlands). So, not foolin' round this time with guessing! The Barnes 500-gr Banded Solid in the 458 Win and Lott are only separated by a couple pages...

So... look what I discovered: We're both right (sort of): Both with 24" barrels (no having to decipher differences due to irregular barrel lengths), both crimped in the top groove, and both give their best velocities will ball powders at 105% density (72.5grs TAC in the Winnie and 85.5grs BL-C(2) in the Lott; both in Hornady brass) The 458 Win = 2194 fps and the Lott = 2264 fps. Difference? 70 fps! Difference in grains of powder = 13.

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That isn't much; glad I can use your ammo. That's about what I was planning on with handloads anyway.

Gdv

USAF retirement is only about 1/3 of active duty pay, so I am working full time for Roseburg Forest Prodcuts as a Logistics Analyst.

Sounds like a good arguement (for anyone who want's to go both ways,):), but there is more to it than that. The easy way to go Lott is to buy a CZ, and many don't like them. If two good rifles are available, sure, go Lott if you want. I have no arguement with that.

But if you already have a nice original WM why change for little benifit, unless you just want to. Who goes around buying calibers just because you can fit something else in? Hands up all who have got to Africa or Alaska without Lott ammo and found heaps of WM just waiting for you? (And the WM fella could use it too, hee,hee.)

You know these posts always start looking for info and end up sounding like two kids at the drive in on a saturday night in the 60's... One with the mopar 426 hemi talkin bout how he'd like to do more of this or that. Then the kid that just bought the same wheels but couldnt go the cash ended up with the 383 and was there justifying how it would do just as well stop light to stop light etc etc. But at the end of the night the kid with the hemi drove home ,parked it and said to himself as he lay in bed"BABY I GOT IT"

Not exactly alike, but you can find some similarities there

I have a Winchester Model 70 in .458 Winchester and can't load the bullet longer than standard length, like you can in a CZ550. But it is no trick to get a chronographed 2200 fps with a 500 grain Barnes solid from this rifle without any excess pressure signs. The powder (AA2230) is slightly compressed but much less compressed than my old 1000 yard 30-06 loads. I don't get any misfires with either, BTW.

The old "standard" for African DG was Kynoch's load with a 2150 fps published velocity. This, however, was with a 28" barrel. In the double rifles actually used back then, velocity was probably about 2050.

Therefore I think the .458 Winchester is more than adequate for any African DG and can't see any purpose to using the .458 Lott. The .458 WM is more than adequate and I prefer the slight recoil reduction because it lets me hold harder.

So, we got the raw figures out of the way early, now your getting entertained for nix, or at least you now know you needn't bother reading any more Lott/WM posts.

And if the Lott owners would stop boast'en we'd stop post'en.

Buyers remorse is a terrible thing. When one is angry only at ones self its a tuff spot aint it

[Buyers remorse is a terrible thing. When one is angry only at ones self its a tuff spot aint it [/quote]

I wouldn't know mate, I'm as happy as Larry. In a late mid life cricis I decided to get a big bore. Anything considered. The down side was I hate travelling, nor too keen on buying sight unseen. While pondering things on the toot, I thought I could get a brand new CZ for about $A1500.00. Available in .416 or .458, and maybe the Lott even. But if you new me at all you'd realise that would be a last resort.

So I answered a few adds etc., some were going second hand for as little as $A400.00 but I was always too late. I rang a small gunshop close by for something, and tongue in cheek said why doesn't he have a big bore for me. Well he didn't know either.

Few days later he rang back, found a notice at a clay target shoot of a Win M70 Super Grade + Pecar Scope .458 WM for $1600.00.
Well a bit dear for a second hand one but I could at least see it easely and the scope had to be worth about $300.

So that's how I got a '76 .458 I would have got any cal from .404 (sure the .416 is a smaller dia. but you know what I mean.

So now I've read up on the .458WM in particular and others in general, and the broad consensus from many experts all over the world is that it is quite adequate for anything on four legs.
The consensus is that the Lott is a bit MORE adequate.

Now, to my logic, that doesn't take anything away from the WM.
And, according to our esteemed Ray Atkinson, it would be easy to convert mine if I so desired.

But I don't desire. So, analyse me that.

JAL-

Sounds like common sense to me.

If I were to downgrade to a 458 Win from my 416 Rem , I'd opt for a faster twist barrel to ensure bullet stability through tough animals even if the velocity was a bit slower than I wanted.

"Downgrade"

That is interesting?? Bet there is a story here??

JW

Nah, he's just being difficult. There was a rumour out of Africa that the .416's had more penatration. I suppose if they're not leaving much Umpth after impact, they just might.

And from my cobweb infested brain, there was something about a flat point helping "straight" penatration, and spin being about useless (after penatration). This should be good to start an arguement.

And that you would be my friend. Think of this folks. The 45/70 has hung on over a vast span of time,why? because the guns it was used in underwent some changes with metalurgy, etc. What changes did the 458 WM go through since inception? OH I know, it got the .3" added

The .45/70 is popular because it introduces big caliber heavy bullet performance, with recoil levels that are within the capability of most people.

The .458 is harder to learn to shoot as the rifles are usually in sporter weight though with better stock design than most .45/70's.

The .416 caliber is the choice of the romantic who dwells on the written word of the past.

If you load the .416 and .458 to potential with modern powders and bullets, you will see similar performance on smaller to medium game as both are way more than enough and both shoot flat enough over usual hunting ranges. When you use them on larger animals that can debate preferences with you, the larger caliber and heavier bullet becomes more noticeable as a heavier hitting load.

I liked the .416's for their flatter trajectories when they first came out as I considered them "big" .375's but then again who among you would take any .416 over a .458 when you feel your life is threatened by the game? Both may be adequate but few people who throw 500-600 grain .458 caliber bullets feel they carried too much.

After using both calibers in a 12 year comparison, I left the .416 (owned 4 of them plus a range oftest rifles) and stayed with the .458's in all guises. Lots of bullets in various weights and constructions makes all of the .458's more versatile and useable across a lot of hunting situations.


JW

George Hoffman personally told me 416's had more penetration, and that is a good enough source for me...........

If I was by myself and knew my like was being threatened by the game, I'd take a .470 or .500 and leave the 458. The 458 is sort of a 'tweener. Not as good an overall hunting rifle as the 416s, but not as good a stopping rifle as the 470s and 500s. I guess if you want a rifle that really doesn't do anything well, then by all means make it a 458, and a 458 Winny at that............

Charger,just so were clear the Lott would be the 426 Hemi.

It has been said: "Sarcasm is the cheapest form of wit" (i.e. "intelligence") Since this thread has deteriorated to that level, I'm outta here!

What about irony? I love irony.
I've never considered intelligence with people that put themselves in front of a dangerous animal and then upset it.

Now Capt.Blaine has nearly got it, but slipped at the last minute. The thing is, in Africa, with all sorts of nasty things hiding in the bush, you can't just say, well I'll take the .222Rem today and pop a Dik Dik. Now if you want penatration or even penetration, for shooting things from the wrong end, the .416 may get you by.
The 505 Gibbs and the like will handle Dik Diks and on up, but is the average "keen amature" up to the shooting of??

Leave them to the pros I reckon. So as Capt.Blaine almost said, the .458 WM is right there in the middle, sort of average cal for the average hunter. And lets hope the average PH is above average. Not that we'd need him once the .458WM opens up.