Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa How was the 24HR camfire hunt in ZIM for PAC ele & Buffalo

You've just proved the point I was trying to make when I said 'All this will do is cause a lot of bad feeling and hyteria on this forum for no reason'.

At the risk of labouring my point, below are just a few of the things that might (note the word might) have happened to cause the situation. To make it easy, I'll number them and then I'll go onto possible solutions that might (note the word might) still occur and I'll letter those points. I'm not suggesting for a moment that any individual, group or company are to blame, nor am I intending to insult anyone. - I'm just pointing out a few possibilities and nothing more.

Also remember that the lists below wll be very incomplete and are only the ones that have sprung to my mind at the moment.

Until Mark has had time to look into it no-one knows the situation etc.

1. The original promised area might have been taken over by 'war vets' - If the guys had hunted there, they could have been prosecuted under the Lacey Act and thereby faced large fines and possibly long jail terms to say nothing of facing severe aggression from the 'new owners'. Therefore a last minute change of area might have been essential and it could be that area was the only one available.

2. The original promised area and/or camp might have suffered a severe bush fire rendering it unusable.

3. See above and replace the words bush fire with drought.

4. The GD might have closed the area, possibly at short notice for reasons such as disease etc.

5. Any of the various parties involved might have failed to (previously) pay another of the parties involved, which could have caused a late change of venue...... note, all payments have to go through the central bank and they could possibly have not paid on time.

6. Correct paperwork might for some reason have been unavailable at the last minute for the promised area or for a particular hunter etc. Remember that during the election period a Brit hunter got thrown into a Zim jail for 5 days without food or water for that very offense! - Surely a change of area would be preferable to that other option.

A. A refund of some kind might be coming from any of the parties involved.

B. A replacement hunt (either partial or total) might be coming from any of the parties involved.

C. Various court cases in various countries might be pending and debate here or elsewhere might affect those.

They're just a few possibilities and Im sure there are bucket loads more.......... and with that I'll sit back for a while and STFU and see if the forum has the maturity to adopt the policy of wait and see or if it feels the need to comment on things they know nothing about and tear the forum apart in the process.

Bye for now

This is the reason that Zim is not the destination it once was.
This is why recomendations are for anyone doing business in Zim and that includes going on a hunt to check it out carefully. The list of bads we cannot deal with is real. A fine line is walked and skirted on this issue.
Good areas do exist in Zim but there are a whole lot of places that are plain and simple bad. The governement allows a quota that is too ambitious to get the trophy fees. The good operators will not take the full quota. Poaching is a BIG problem in some areas. Zim is bit by bit falling apart. What will kill it will not be a total ban on hunting from US hunters. What will kill it is the deteriating condition of the amount of areas with huntable game. A report such as what was reported here is just the beginning as people try and ink out a living in the Safari business in Zim. We remember how it was. It is not that way anymore. Too many farms have been confiscated and consumed beyond repair. For many it is a moral descision whether to go or not. For most they will not go if the game promosed is just not there.
Africa is becoming more expensive and areas that offer good hunting at what is considered a more competitive rate are shrinking. This is not a lesson to be learned on just this safari operator in Zim.
I for one feel bad for anyone trying to do safari business in Zim at the moment.

"When we start using letters to state expressions for sayings that we use only to inflame because to actually type out the words sound too harsh."

Blaser guy, There is no "we" in that statement. Direct that at the poster that made the comment.

Shakari,
Not to put an overly fine point on it but you've been opining about this getting "hysterical" and out of hand. I firmly believe that that's exactly what your intent was when you used the "STFU" in an attempt at deflection and to quash the facts with a digressing thread. You've done a bang up job of showing your true character.
Your entire list of "reasons" for a failed hunt may have potenential for validity although I have to wonder about the part where the hunters were run out of camp in the middle of the night or multiple hunting parties in one area, no permits etc.
No doubt you have a long list of "reasons" there as well.
Then there is my confusion about how Mark insists that all of his hunters from last year were thrilled. When I read Motor City's and Test1328 posts that doesn't appear to be the case. Not even close.
Maybe I'm the only one seeing that or I have seriously missread something.
I rather doubt this was a charity hunt with zero commission so at the risk of being redundant I'll simply close by saying it's just MHO but it would seem a refund of commissions and an aplogy would go a long ways. No response from Africa is required for that when the outfitter openly acknowledges that aspects of the hunt were "unacceptable"

Shakari,

Most of the reasons you have given are good reasons why a trip should be canceled, even at the last minute, by the opperator and a full refund given to the hunter.

Draughts for example do not happen overnight. A dispute between an opperator and a landowner may or may not happen overnight, but they are the absolute responsibility of the opperator and so if a dispute that is irresolvable prior to or during the hunt develops again a full refund is the prper recourse.

Last minute switches should "never" happen, but if they do, it should be only to an equal or better location, and not the opposite and sure as hell not to an area without quota.

Quota is know well in advance, changes infrequently and in Zim there is a provision for optional quota above annual quota within the concessions greater management plan. A Concession holder shouldn't be in the bisiness of SELLING QUOTA HE DOESN'T HAVE!!! In the event of a FU, and they will happen, the only recourse if a full refund to the hunter.

Private landowners are responsible for the management of their wildlife, and cooperate with Parks. Much of the quota setting is at the landowners discretion, he need to use it, to insure that he has both the quota and the game available that he has ALREADY SOLD!!!

I hope Mark is successful is wrangling refund money from an opperator who, from the reports here, seems to be selling what isn't his to sell.

JPK

Stetson

Yes you have missread something........ in fact, in this case, most things. What I'm trying to do is exactly what I've said in my earlier posts. Nothing more and nothing less. It's so ridiculous when these things turn into flaming wars because of uninformed comments from people who were not there, don't know anything about what happened and probably know very little about Africa or the African hunting industry.

The reason I used the expression STFU is that it's more polite than using the entire words........ the reason I use the word [bleep] is that I'm British by birth and English by the grace of God and in our culture, we use the word [bleep] a great deal.

Very often, in fact usually, it's not meant in an insulting way, just to add sentiment or underline a statement. For example, if something is nicer than nice, it's [bleep]' nice, if something is uglier that ugly, it's [bleep]' ugly and if a Buff is bigger than big.......... I'm sure you can work out the rest!

All races have individual cultures and sub cultures and none are better than the other......... they're just different and in my culture the word [bleep] is a very useful word....... and as we invented it, I reckon we have every right to use it any way we [bleep]' like......... but hey, don't get upset, I'm only pulling your [bleep]' leg!

JPK

My point is that no-one knows what happened yet, not even Mark and that it's unfair that he be crucified until he discovers what happened and takes whatever action he feels appropriate etc....... that's all. Nothing more and nothing less.....

I'm sure you know southern Africa has been suffering a well known drought for several years and you should also know that drought has affected areas very differently depending on a lot of factors such as number of waterholes and overgrazing etc. My point is WE DON'T YET KNOW.........

BTW - My short list of reasons didn't include quota at all....

Like you, I hope Mark is successful in wrangling refund money from the operator.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but from what I know of Mark he's a stand up guy, and will do the right thing. seems the only ones fanning the flames here weren't on the trip. the ones that were know that flying off the handle won't help, the damage has been done. it takes a cool head to sort through things at this point. everyone agrees the trip sucked over all. it doesn't look to me like anyone is intentionally trying to cover anything up.
its too bad it went south for all parties involved.
I'm interested to see how this pans out, I won't post anymore, just follow along. I hope all parties are satisfied when it gets settled.

Stetson,

I'll add rather than edit for clarity....... you do make one very good point, which is about the guys getting kicked out of camp in the middle of the night. As far as I'm concerned, that is unforgivable and simply should never have happened. Ive never heard of such a thing in all the almost 30 years I've been involved in the hunting industry. Even if money was owed, it's not the fault of the clients.......

"It's so ridiculous when these things turn into flaming wars because of uninformed comments from people who were not there"

Perhaps that's true but then it applies to you as well. Your speculation and opinions are no more valid than any one elses that wasn't there.
I'm sure we are all intelligent enough here to understand the difference between a humorous F this or that and "STFU". It's not polite by any stretch. We all know what it means and we all know if we spell out something like,
stiff assed [bleep] Britt it gets bleeped.
I have nothing more to add other than to say I think the most relevant point is that we are all hoping for the best outcome possible for the hunters.

In order, ending whenever I get bored.


1)Area was not taken over by war vets. Hunts had been very recently held there, and more were planned. My PH voiced the opinion that that is where he wished we were.Although it isn't relevent the Lacey Act does not apply to Canadians.Whatever the reason for the change was, it was not the above.The area we were in may have been all that was available but not for these reasons.

2)No fire. The outfit had experienced a fire in another area/camp that I had hunted last year and told me about it. Since fires seemed to be worth mentioning, they wouldn't have forgotten about one in the hunting area.

3) No drought, quite the opposite in fact. Cover was a bit thicker than average for that time of year.

4)Nope, no game department closure. One of the discussed areas was never opened in the first place, but that was known far in advance of the hunt to the outfitter.

5)Money..BINGO!! The root of all evil. Schultz had two money disputes that we know about. One stopped a member from hunting the area that he moved to hunt. Another had us moving camps at night.Things have gone down-hill badly when the clients are being told about the owner's money disputes or woes.For the record, the clients held up their end, moneywise.

You're right, I wasn't there. However, I have been in the African hunting industry for 28 years, live in Africa and in recent years have spent something like 6 months (sometimes more) a year in the bush..........(this year is different for me, but that's by the by) but I'm not the one that's ready to cricify various parties before the result is in........

Here's one Brit that isn't stiff assed......... in fact, it's a concept that I don't just hate, it's a concept I [bleep]' hate!

Sharari,

First off, I gotta good kick out of your post prior to the one responsing to mine... [bleep]' funny post,,hahaha...!!!

On other issues, hey I'm not crucifying Mark, only the outfitter.

Nothing like a drought or a change in allowed quota, or probably anything beyond his control changed between his selling the hunt, taking the money and then renegging on his obligations. Furthermore, he went on to collect money at the conclusion of the safari, rather than stand hat in hand appologetically handing back refunds. Which is what a fair and straight up guy would do. FU's happen, how you fix them is what counts. This guy swindled money.

And if something beyond the outfitter's control changed, he should have cancelled the hunt and refunded the money, or if it happened mid-hunt done all he could to make things right, like a change to a decent area and/or a refund. BTW, hope like hell the fellows who shot an ele in a Zim park are not prosecuted under the Lacey Act. Even though these hunts are being offered the violate the Zim game laws.

Selling quota you don't have or acquire, for hunts in areas you either don't have or haven't arranged for is just wrong and is a form of theft.

JPK

JPK

Glad you enjoyed a bit of English humour! - sometimes if people aren't Brits, they just don't appreciate the humour at all....

The examples I used were just suggestions of the sort of thing that could have been a factor in what happened..... nothing more.

It certainly sounds like the hunt went tits up for some reason but as I keep saying, all I'm trying to do is avoid this thing turning into a trial by internet with a jury of people who weren't there and don't know what happened, before Mark has had a chance to find everyhing out.

Mark has been a member of this forum a long time and has contributed an awful lot and I feel it's unfair for anyone to find him guilty before he's had a chance to do any more than make an opening statement that simply says he's trying to look into the matter. Hell, he wasn't even along on the hunt, so in effect, he probably doesn't know much more at this point that you, I or the rest of the jury..........

Lets also remember that Zim is deeply in the doo doo right now and many places only have occasional electricity or phones so it's gonna take a while to even get hold of anyone over there....

Shakari,

I'll repeat, I'm not trying to crucify Mark, just the opperator.

I am aware that there can be some extremely few and rare legitamate reasons for a nessecary but unexpected move. None apparent nor even remotely likely in this case.

On Zim comms, well, I dunno, just ten minutes ago got off the phone confirming a "last minute" Zim hunt with "my" PH, who set the hunt up at my request, made maybe two weeks ago, during which intervening time the PH was in the bush. We'll be hunting three tuskless and a bushbuck in Chewore, a trophy bull and two tuskless in Makuti as well as a leopard there. Huny dates Oct 1 - ? I need to be back in town for a business obligation the 21st.

Non-export bulls were also available elsewhere in Zim.

There is still elephant quota available in Zim, so moving the hunter to a non-scheduled area back then and not having ele quota when hunters who have paid for an ele hunt arrive was particularly weak, don't you think?

JPK

JPK

Most of my comments were not aimed at you and I appreciate you don't blame Mark...... but I really do think we all need to wait and see what Mark discovers and does etc...... these issues are never sorted out overnight.

I'm glad to hear you can get through to Zim..... I've been trying to get through to Bulawayo for weeks and still haven't had much luck!......... I've been trying to export some machinery from there to RSA for months and am still trying!!!

I wish you all the luck in the world on your hunt....... except perhaps on the [bleep]' Elephant cows!

Shoot straight on that Leopard!

Yes, I got through to Zim (rather the PH got through to me - maybe by sat phone? I emailed the PH and he emailed me with no trouble either way.), but importantly, the guys in Zim are getting through to each other, even on short notice. Otherwise there'd be no way to find that many elephants in so short a time, and there were more elephant opprtunities the PH and I culled through to come with a workable plan with what time and elephants were available and where.

The tuskless hunts will surely be a [bleep] 'n good time!

Edited to add that I will surely do my best on the leopard, that is one creature that needs to be shot well, as your photos attest. I've shot a few hyhena when it was too dark to see them with the naked eye, and each was a good boiler room shot, so I suppose I'm ready for any low light opportunities. If its light enough for the PH, Rich Tabor, to see nuts, I should have plenty of light for a shot.

JPK

Shakari,

They're on to your English humor and my appreciation of it, they've turned on the [bleep] 'n censor machine!!!

JPK

[bleep] yes.

[bleep]' Brits!

I tip my hat to a great response Rick Bin.

I may not stop laughing until tomorrow.

JPK