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But even if they did apologize, they still make too many goodamn mistakes and literally inflict harm and life-changing [negative] consequences on law-abiding citizens! Well here it is friend. On a given day around we can read a post about a child molester, a thief, hell even a poacher. In these cases the testosterone bounces around here like an old Whammo superball. We have some tough guys around here who would rather dish out the justice on their own terms, I can understand that. But then many of these same tough guys expect those who deal with the thieves, poachers, and other assorted criminals everyday to do so putting their own well being or that of their families second to mistake free policing. Understand I�m not making a comment directed at this particular story I don�t have the facts, but in general if I�m told there is a felon inside of the house, go in and get him, well how many here really want to politely knock on the door and announce ourselves and our intention to arrest said felon boyfriend? Cops get killed everyday doing just that..of course that always doesn�t make the front page at the Campfire. I�m betting that here on this board 90% of the members are no different or any less aggressive than most of your LEO. So, out of us 90% I�ll be brave and be the first to step forward and admit Barkoff would blow it on a given day, not out of malice, but due to my aggressiveness and instinct to survive given the wrong situation. Yep, you would be reading about old Barkoff shooting a dog that came at him when he entered the wrong house because I was given bad information, and believed I was about to go head to head with an escaped felon. Then you all could write about Barkoff and how he enjoys shooting dogs and jacking up old ladies in the dark of the night. How many of you criticizers have done the job or have been on the other side of a door? Funny thing is I don�t think there is anyone on this board who would ever blame a U.S Marine for shooting a friendly or civilian in a stress situation, but cut no slack to the 1% of LEO who make mistakes dealing with stress situations. Let the investigations go forward, and let disciplinary action be dealt out afterward. There are bad cops out there, real cowboy attitudes, I have seen them, but truthfully, tell me how and why you are so sure that this was a case of jackboots in the night and not a mistake? Fact, or speculation? To do the job as you advocate I would assume would result in less mistakes, but more dead cops; so if you are a cop which are you going to choose? , from your post and analogy comparing cops to marines, the cops are at war with the citizens? That they're supposed to protect and serve, who also ultimately pay the cops' salaries ...... ? You know Barkoff, there's that pesky inconvenient document called the Constitution, and also Posse Comittatus ..... I always thought that marines, soldiers and the military did a different job than cops, but maybe that's not what you believe? And if so, how many other cops on the beat also think their job is "make war" on 'civilians?' [i.e. taxpayers and Joe Citizen] Maybe that was a 'slip of the tongue' to make an anology with marines? But regardless, from all the many-to-frequent-police mistakes, it sure seems like cops are indeed waging war on the public.And that's what is pissing-off "civilians!"As for cops who are reckless and not smart enough to keep from getting hurt doing what they're paid to do - what they voluntarily signed-up to do, MAYBE THEY NEED TO GET ANOTHER JOB!Just how many "mistakes" does society have to endure and suffer to know there are too many incompetent cops on the job who shouldn't have a badge and gun?I realize we're not in Japan, but if a cop recklessly killed a "civilian" in Japan that cop would likely serve a prison sentence if neglegence was involved, regardless of what [extenuating] circumstances were supposed to be involved. And either the cop or his department would pay "go-men money" [sufferage money based on what that victim would have earned for his family] to the victim's family for the rest of his life! No doubt someone will say "go to Japan!" But to such a dumbazz, I'll remind them that even a country and society like Japan knows when a cop is or is not doing a good job!Many police mistakes wouldn't be so bad if cops admitted they were wrong when in fact they are, and if so many of cops weren't so damn glib and flippent about the wrongs they know are inflicted on the innocent public. Why don't cops police themselves?
Why shouldn't the public "police" cops?As for a burgler or bad guy who might 'visit' my home, why would I want to call a cop? Who's primarily a historian and recorder anyway?If I'm taking a risk contacting the police for anything, why should I trust them to do their job?
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Campfire Tracker
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We had a scuz with a couple of heavy felony warrants run into a house. My guys selaed off the house and I went to the door. Momma said he wasn't there. Cool. I woke up the Judge and had the witness officers make out an affadavit and got a search warrant. Momma tried to keep us out and I crashed the door, found the scuz and arrested momma for harboring a fugitive and obstructing. The Judge asked me why I applied for the warrant as the fugitive WAS observed and it was his home of record. Answer: I wanted to arrest momma too for harboring. Better with a warrant because then there was an obstructing charge to go along with it.
If cops went "by the book" with 99.9% of their cases, I might begin to trust cops again.
Evil Twin, thanks for your post. And FWIW, my compliments for doing a good job.  Might have taken longer. Pizzed off tghe judge "for wasting his time" [who should then be fired for his [bleep] arrogance and as a negligent judge! - yeah I know they're voted in], but everything was done "correctly." No "cowboying" in that one.
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Just because you can does not mean you should.If the LEOs had a reason to enter then their reasoning was screwed up.Did the bad guy get away while they were shooting the dog and scareing the hell out of the mother and children?
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Just because you can does not mean you should. Nicely put.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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#3 ....you or (sic) either very unlucky, full of BS or doing things you shouldn't be doing.
Please enumerate the things I shouldn't be doing and actually it was a question. Do they teach you to be jerks or simply assume everyone has broken the law? Is it in the training?
For the first part of your question..How would I know? As for being jerks, that is a statement, not a question.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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not to hijack but worrisome to me is the "pepper spray makes em bite harder" comment from guys that probably have to face more angry dogs than I ever will.
I've always felt pretty comfortable sending the kids mom out with pepper spray for her jogging and such.
is it the same with dogs as it is for me with bears LEO's? IOW's pepper spray be danged lead spray is the only effective counter measure?
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
TEAMWORK = a bunch of people doing what I say
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
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Pepper is pretty good on a dog, or human, that is "just thinkin' about it", but once their mind is made up, it won't work in time. I don't have any experience with bears, but I suspect that it is the same.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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1ak,
If the dog is being showing the signs of being aggressive, but not "locked on" and it's somewhere where I need to be, I'll give it a dose of OC. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
The experience that I have with OC just pizzing dogs off comes from working with Police K9s. They're not your average dog. That said, I'm not so stupid/arrogant to realize that there's plenty of people in the general public that can train a dog to do what ours do. If a dog is targeted, I don't waste my time with OC. I've seen too many cops put out of a job by torn nerves, etc.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The Lt. summed it up pretty well.
Georeg
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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thanks boys, tis good info to have though perhaps not what I wanted to hear.
tis a long uphill battle getting her to train enough with a handgun to make me feel good about her proficiency and don't know how you teach someone to develop the mindset to actually use the firearm when needed without bombarding them with pics and stories of folks that should have been armed and willing to use said arms.
and can't say I cotton to the notion of turning her into something she's not, the sweetness and gentleness in her are a couple of her most redeeming characteristics.
have always told her no doubts about the pepper spray, even if you were in the wrong, no serious damage done to man or beast.
time to rethink things,
perhaps better to start a new thread about how to deal with this dilemma.
but will say thank you for the honest info and oh yeah, thanks for doing a job you couldn't pay me enough to do. Don't know how you guys do it or why, but am thankful for guys that serve honorably, all of our lives are enriched by those that serve for the right reasons, even if some of them lose their compass sometimes.
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
TEAMWORK = a bunch of people doing what I say
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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that makes sense too. If I was dead-set on getting to you I know for a fact pepper spray wouldn't even phase me because I eat alot of very spicy foods on a daily basis and I actually LIKE the pain.
A baton might be a way to go....or maybe not. I have a pit and he locked on to the side of my Jack Russell's head one day and I punched the pit in the head behind the ear as hard as I could to make him let go and he did after the second punch and he was wincing but it took all I had and 2 punches. I way 220lbs and I've hit men with less force that didn't hold up as well my pit did. The Jack didn't fair as well but he lived.
What do you think about a baton on biting dog?
BTW the way, I'm not anti-cop...I am anti-jerk in all walks of life. It just seems, as an observation, that a majority of police let the power go to their head. Like I said I have never met a state trooper who was rude to and I was caught by one after trying to outrun him....young and dumb at the time. In fact he taught me a powerful lesson about the law and lawmen with his actions that day and I appreciate it to this day. Jerks are WAY more populous in my line of work but they don't carry guns either.
Ok.
A DEO FORMAVIT IN BELLO PROBAVIT
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Edguardo, first off, I'm a dog guy. I've had them all my life and have three now (though I wish one would run away). People are fragile, and agile, compared to dogs. When these discussions take place, lots people immediately revert to the "Bambi Syndrome" and think of their on beloved pets. Most of them have never seen the canines that have never been petted, just chained to tree and teased with sticks, dragging a logging chain around their neck to make them strong. Unfortunately,in some situations, a dog doesn't give you time to get to know it.
Very few officers carry batons anymore. Most departments prohibit them because of liability involved. I don't want to open this can of worms, but I must to answer your question. Tasers are much less lethal than batons,but not designed to use on dogs. If an impact weapon is carried by an LEO these days, it is usually a collapsible baton of some sort, capable of striking pressure points but little more.
The reason the spotlight is on the "jerks" is because they...well, keep themselves in the spotlight! Some of them are just young and inexperienced, and will mature into good officers. Some of them just shouldn't be cops. We have a saying, you don't know they're a nut 'till they fall out of the tree. There's no way to test for it, no way to train for it and can't do anything about it until the damage is done. Then you get rid of them, and start all over again.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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What do you think about a baton on biting dog?
If you use a baton on a pissed off Pitbull, you'd better kill him or at least knock him unconscious, because otherwise it will only make him more determined to hold on. Their ancestors were bull and bear baters. If they'd rather die than let go of a raging thousand pound bull or bear, a baton blow, short of lethal, will do no better.
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Campfire Outfitter
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What do you think about a baton on biting dog?
If you use a baton on a pissed off Pitbull, you'd better kill him or at least knock him unconscious, because otherwise it will only make him more determined to hold on. Their ancestors were bull and bear baters. If they'd rather die than let go of a raging thousand pound bull or bear, a baton blow, short of lethal, will do no better. Detour ahead: now that's why the breed should be banned. Useless timebombs are not for house pets or to be allowed where kids are or could be.
GOA
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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What do you think about a baton on biting dog?
If you use a baton on a pissed off Pitbull, you'd better kill him or at least knock him unconscious, because otherwise it will only make him more determined to hold on. Their ancestors were bull and bear baters. If they'd rather die than let go of a raging thousand pound bull or bear, a baton blow, short of lethal, will do no better. Detour ahead: now that's why the breed should be banned. Useless timebombs are not for house pets or to be allowed where kids are or could be. Yeah, let's kill everything with moxie. Americans just hate spunk. Too frightening.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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BTW the way, I'm not anti-cop...I am anti-jerk in all walks of life. It just seems, as an observation, that a majority of police let the power go to their head. Like I said I have never met a state trooper who was rude to and I was caught by one after trying to outrun him....young and dumb at the time. In fact he taught me a powerful lesson about the law and lawmen with his actions that day and I appreciate it to this day. Jerks are WAY more populous in my line of work but they don't carry guns either. Nobody hates a bad/jerk cop more than a good one. I'm anti-jerk as well. I don't know why you're separating Troopers vs. others as (in NH) we all go to the same Academy. The problem is that the jerks get attention. Thousands of cops go to work everyday without raising a blip on the public's radar screen. George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
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Most good folk's exposure to cops, unless your'e related to one, is through traffic stops. I will assume that most experiences here (at the fire) are the same, as I believe that the common interest that we all share, the outdoors, breeds a superior class of people.
Cop 101, Traffic Rule #1....Chew 'em out, or write them up. Never do both.
It always amazes me when someone tells me... "Officer Smith is a really nice guy, he's given me three tickets but was always very professional."
Vs.
"Officer Smith is a real ass----. He says I was going eighty in a fifty, then asked me if I cared about my kid in the back seat! No, he gave me a warning, but can you believe that guy?."
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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That about sums it up. Treat everybody like a million bucks......
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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That about sums it up. Treat everybody like a million bucks......
George And that should go in the opposite direction, too.
Retired cat herder.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Do you understand what "discrete" means?
Mebbe iff'n ya' spelt it rite, he'd unnastand. LOL.
Guns are responsible for killing as much as Rosie O'Donnel's fork is responsible for her being FAT.
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