Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa A sensitive question

I am in no way trying to ruffle anybodys feathers with this one but I know it happens. <P>Lets say a person books a hunt and when he/she arrives at the camp he/she sits down with the PH or Guide and says: You find me a 180 B&C whitetail (or african game) and I will tip you $2000.00<P>We all know not everybody can afford that kind of tip but for some people money means little as they have so much. The first time I hunted in South Dakota for pheasants I tipped the guide $100 and hoped it didn't insult him. Back then I had less. He did an excellent job and I appreciated his efforts. <P>My question: If the guide/PH knows there is a huge tip to be had for locating the hunter that huge animal are they more likely to locate said animal for the hunter?<P>Don

Don, you make it sound like the PH/Guide hides a few exceptional animals in the North forty just for the high-dollar clients and won't take anyone to them unless they pungle up the cash. In my experience, it just doesn't often work that way.<BR> While I have heard of guides here in the states that charge additional fees for X size of animal or above, this is usually after the fact and doesn't represent a special knowledge of the location of an exceptional trophy. Just as in Africa, the PH is only going to let you shoot a mature representative animal, getting a much larger specimen is mostly a matter of luck, picking your shots, and holding out for the right animal. I think JJ and Ray spelled it out, as you did, when they said sometimes you will go home empty handed if you hold out for the big ones.<BR>Last year, I had an opportunity at a huge Kudu. By time we got into position, the sun was directly into the objective of my scope and I had no shot. By time we got that cleared, the Kudu wandered into the bush. After waiting about 1/2 hour, we decided to look elsewhere. After getting in the truck and starting to head to another part of the huge ranch, the Kudu came out of the bush 20 feet from where I had been laying in ambush just 5 minutes earlier! Luck is going to be your greatest ally, in my opinion.<BR>Also, in my opinion, using this tactic up front may easily be interpreted as an insult. It may imply that the PH/Guide won't do his best work unless he can expect a huge tip. Most reputable guides would probably take exception to such an offer unless it was after the fact and showed appreciation for a job already done. In fact, from my little experience, and talking to most people who have used guides, they have worked hard without any inkling of getting any tip at all. <BR>To me, I tip what I can afford and what represents my level of appreciation for the hunt- up to my self-imposed limit. If you can afford more and wish to pay more, I'm sure the PH/Guide will appreciate it, but surely won't look down at you for not giving a huge tip. In other words, tipping is a very personal thing- it should probably be handled that way.- Sheister

If your hunting a single species the effort may be very high for your success to locate a specific sized animal. <P>On a general bag safari you could be paying a discount fee for the wholoe trip with us and the first Kudu you see could be 60 inches. Or you may not see one over 55 inches? <P>This is wild game with the free run of the ranch. it's awefully difficult to predict what specific animal you will have the opportunity to shoot. <P>On a general bag hunt of say 8-10 animals we don't shop to long for each species becuse we have usually ten days to take all of them. You can easily make your desire known for a XXX size animal but you should also prepare to go without if you don't see one or run out of time.<P>The other consideration for you would be that the effort by the PH is the same wether you find that special animal or not. If you are shown 4-6 big specimens and choose not to shoot them the PH did his job and it should be considered a successful hunt. It it's not like they can be ordered. It's hunting and we do our best to locate exactly what each hunter wants. <P>However with wild free roaming game we are playing by their rules. I tell every client hunting with me or on our Safaris to try and have 6 animals by the 5th day. This way they can take there time and be a bit more particular for the last few animals. The last thing you want to do is have 5 animals remaining with 3 days to go. In that case you will be shooting what ever you see if you desire to fill all your trophies. <P>Any good PH will tell you the quality of game you have the chance to shoot honestly. We are all heavily tested on this, and must pass a real world in the field test on Trophy judging. We must be within 5% of the actual size or we fail! on a 50" Kudu you can be off by only 2.5" on a 25" impala your error can only be 1.25" off or a springbok of 14" you can only have an error of 3/4 of an inch. <P>This is the reason the PH should be trusted. He had to pass a government mandated test to get get qualified for this job. It's not just some "Bush Bubba" with a few thousand acres to hunt. These guys (myself included) have had a very thourough training and have the experience to judge your trophies very accuratly. <P>So if you wish to spend the time for a specific animal as a 1X1 hunter you have the great likely hood of getting everything you want. If you choose to hunt for a general bag plains game package 2X1 you still have every bit the chance to find the biggest game but probably should not turn down too many opportunities of average to "good" trophies with the time constraints you have. <P>The tips given have never as far as I know been a determinimg factor to the quality of the game found, but rather the quality of the effort made. jj<P><P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

I suggest that Shiester and Mr. Hack hit the nail pretty directly and agree with them. From experience from both ends of the stick, I'll say that any good guide/PH is going to always do his best to get you the best they can because they know that the tip will be determined on their performance and tips are a major portion of their income, hence the insentive is there, except maybe with some fly-by-nights. They also have their own personal pride which always drives them to get the best they can. If you intend to be selective, it is only fitting and fair that you let your guide/PH know of your intentions. If you have decided that you don't want a Kudu below 58" and you let your PH know this, he won't work any harder (he's already working at top performance level), but he simply won't tell you "that's a real good one" when you see a 55"er. He knows your objective, that's all.

Sheister,<P>I agree with what you said. As to a guide having an animal tucked away someplace I doubt that is possible but on the other hand lets say an outfit in Manitoba runs 20 hunters a day over bait piles for whitetail. Lets say that one guide has 4 piles to care for and he knows that one of his hunters is going to give him a huge bonus (if you will) if he kills a 180 B&C (or whatever size he is after). I am not saying "all" guides think this way but I do know that "some" will put that person on the pile where more large deer have been spotted. I don't think it is greed I do think it is: This guy has money, my kids need new shoes, I need a newer truck, my wife needs a new stove or whatever. Plus the outfitter knows (or at least assumes) that if this guy gets that "big boy" he will be back year after year because he can afford to do so where as a guy like myself can't afford to go every year. <P>As far a Africa, sure there are lessor expensive hunts available hence the "package deal" but there are also the $50,000.00 Safari's where only the super rich can afford and some can affrod it every year. I would "think" that these very wealthy people would be catered to in a different way then if I was to go on a one time Safari in that same group (I can't afford that, I was just listing myself as an example). <P>I am not trying in any way to say that JJ, Ray, Peter or any of the other Outfitters/PH's here conduct themselves in this manner but I have seen it happen on hunts I have been on. It shouldn't happen as we all paid the same amount for said hunt but I won't be going year after year and "maybe" that wealthy person will. <P>Last year on a cull hunt myself and 2 buddies went on something happened. One of my buddies is a Doctor and once this was known by the outfitter he was treated better then my other buddy and myself. It was just little things but it was obvious to my other buddy and myself. I can only assume this was true because they "think" he will go with them again. As it turned out none of us were happy with that hunt. <P>I think it is sad that "some" outfitters do conduct themselves in this way. <P>Don <P>P.S. Those trout we have did in fact come from out west and your trout came from Asia. I can't for the life of me find that post.

Well when I'm guiding and someone tells me if I get him a 180 whitetail, I'm prone to tell him, "yeah, I can do that" and then he get my extra effort over the non tipper and that amounts to a "prayer"....He gets the same effort as anyone else, but if he gets a 180 whitetail he better pay up!!!<P>Kudude, are you reading this, make and offer dude!!!<P>------------------<BR>Ray Atkinson<BR>atkinsonhunting.com<BR>208-326-4120

I would feel that if they are a Ph and want to stay in the business that they better put in there best effort whether they think they will get a tip or not.<P>Now for a slice of reality, People do like money and that is a known fact, heck all are nice guns and ammo cost a few dollars and if you give the PH and extra 2000 you can bet he will try a little harder, most people who have there houses full of trophys and go on safari's in africa are rich they might not aggree with that but that is a fact also unless they are a native from africa or such.<P>add it up who can afford 30 to 50,000 to hunt africa for elephants and lions-- yep you got it the rich <P>it makes for a good read to here about there safari's<P>there are a few people out there that will save up a life time to go on a safari but many go every 1 or 2 years, it is a richmans thing.<P>One day I would like to swing a hunting trip to alaska or maybe africa and if that happens you can bet it will not be for a 50,000 dollar elephant or whatever they cost rather see the rich hunting on a safari then playing golf tho <P>for now i will just hunt my fla swamp and dream of safaris, if i get a extra 50,000 i will put the money down on something foolish like a house to live in or something.<P>the rich already have a house or 2 or 3 and if i was rich I would probaly be going on safaris also so I cannot blame them for doing something i would do myself, if your poor stay out of africa or get a better job or a rich girlfriend<p>[This message has been edited by mikfla (edited April 08, 2001).]

I probably should stay out of this, but I am too stupid I guess.<BR>I have never had a client, that aproach me at the beginning of the safari with any kind of such proposition as mentioned above. This may be, that I book nearly all of my own clients and therefore have had several discussions about what animals are to be expected, I also, know his preferences ahead of time and If I can choose the concession for that animal(s) I will try to put him/her in it. As far as trying hard, I do that for everyone, I do it for me and my reputation. Even if the client is a real pain in the-----I do not want any client going home and spreading the ol'george would not hunt! However, when you have a really outstanding cleint you are very pleased when he comes up with a well deserved trophy.<BR>On the tipping subject, this is sometimes a little touchy subject. I have recieved as little as 200.00 to as much as a 4,400 Dakota rifle. I think the more african trips a client has the more he is likely to be a larger tipper. This also, depends on ones personal wealth The tips always comes at the end of the hunt and the PH should be grateful for any thing he recieves. I have always used the motto, Nothing expected, everything appreciated......<BR>I do know know of one weathly individual that hunted in Mozambique many years ago, (you would all no his name should I mention it) who had heard about an extremely large sable. He made two safaris in the area with no success. He made a deal with the concession holder and the PH, should they locat said sable call him and he would fly there in less than 48 hours. They did, he <BR>did And the sable was in the record book for some time before being displaced. The average once or twice in a lifetime Africa safari goer cannot do that. Our trophies must come as catch can. Since most world record trophies are taken by chance rather than plan, I believe it should be that way not because a person has a better chance because of extra wealth.<BR>Just some thoughts<BR>George<p>[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited April 08, 2001).]

mikfla, Wealth is a reletive thing. Your saying that only the rich hunt Africa may be true when comparing somebody at the poverty level to somebody who is truely wealthy. But your comment is not very accurate in general terms.<P>Last year I put together a group of 8 people from our former hunting site. There were 3 Policemen, electricians, a real estate agent and an Electrical engineer. None make an income of the "wealthy" you speak of. The difference is their priorities. <P>I can't begin to tell you how many people I hear whine about how Africa is just to expensive when leaning against their 40,000 pickup truck which they bought to pull their new boat, jet skis, snowmobile, dirtbikes, horse's etc. <P>Each of us has a priority scale in life. That is the limiting factor not the cash for most people. I have a 6 year old Toyota pickup truck and only own two rifles. How many guys buy a brand new truck every other year and own a dozen or more rifles? It's a priority thing, not a rich guy thing. <P>I had hunts this year for 10 days all inclusive with five animals for $2750.00 is that only for the wealthy? I heard a dozen guys on this site talk about having that much money into a single rifle but could not afford the safari they were built for! That's like having a boat with out any water, but so many people just don't get it! <P>What is the point of 6 custom made tack driving rifles when you dream of hunting but have exhausted all your liquid funds on firarms and toys and now can't afford to hunt? <P>Your cars can be stolen, your house can burn down, you will eventually get bored with about every toy you buy. However your memories of the Safari will be with you the rest of your life. Every single morning when you wake up it will likely be the first thing you think of and in your mind you will hear the animals calling and the birds singing through out your day. You will smell Africa from time to time, and be addicted to the Discovery channel to get a fix of your trip for ever more. <P>I pride myself on finding a way to help even the least likely people to hunt in Africa. This is why I managed to make this hunt this year for the $2750.00 it may not be the big five but you can say you hunted in Africa and saw the wild game there!<P>Just remember you can always borrow money but you will never borrow time!jj<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

I'm with JJ.<P>IF I hear one more time, "It must be nice", someone is going to have to sit on me to control me.<P>Just because I get to go "every year", does not mean that I am financially wealthy.<P>Any of those who say that, are welcome to come and live in my old house, that has water in the basement when it rains.<P>They are welcome to drive my old '88 Chevy, with A/C tht does not work.<P>They are welcome to have put two kids thru school, before 1985, and remember the fact that I barely hunted until then because I just could not do both.<P>I am fortunate to have the best job in the world, and the best bosses in the world.<P>My bosses used to work for me, and now I work for them. When I am home, I am 100% committed to them, 24 hr a day. I carry a beeper and phone everywhere.<P>When anyone needs "cheap" help at 4 AM on a Saturday morning, or 10 PM on Sunday night, guess who gets to do it. Me.<P>We all have choices, my wife and I choose to live in the old PAID FOR HOUSE, and drive the old PAID FOR CAR, and take the house payment and car payment money and hunt Africa each year.<P>I have paid my dues. <P>

JJ and Terry have it right. There have been times in my life when paying for something really hurt and kept hurting for a long time. Sometimes it even left a bad taste in my mouth, when the service, quality, or people were just plain not up to the value I expected.<BR>Going to Africa was not one of those times. I never thought twice about writing that check, and I won't next time I go either because I know now it was worth more than I paid. How many things can you say that about?- Sheister

Damn it, damn it, damn it...okay, where do I sign up? I'VE GOT TO GO! This is driving me crazy, I've got the bug so bad and have been trying to surpress it, I can't take it anymore. I'm a mess, look at all the pictures I put up, JJ you've done me in...I Dream of Africa. If you knew my personality you would take sympathy, I'm what you'd call obsessive/addictive, I won't stop until I get my fill, which probably won't happen. Next thing you'll know I'll be moving to RSA and getting my PH license.<P>Hack, I'm not happy with you. Three years ago I never thought of Africa...now I own a .375H&H, study the different types of animals and surf the net soaking in all the pictures I can get. The last thing I need to do is go to Sheisters house and see his mounts, I'll be on the next plane to Jo-berg.

Heeeeerrrree Spiiiiiiiikee, come see what you are missing. HeeeeeerrrrreSpiiiikkeee, you won't sleep until you go! Heeeeeerrrre Spiiiiiikkkkee, I've got heads to show you! Remember, the bear hunting planning trip is at my house- guess what is at my house? - Now, how much is that plane ticket again? LOL-Sheister

Spike, I forgot to mention- you know all those animal pictures you were posting on this board? Well, all those pictures are SMALL and IMMATURE examples of what you will be hunting. The big boys are much more impressive in person! Do you need the number of my shrink yet?- Sheister

I know Sheister, I can't put if off anymore. Tomorrow night????? Can I come over and see the pretty heads? <P>It was Jim's post about hunting with him and hearing the Hyenas laugh and the Zebras and ....<P>I closed my eyes and it was like I was there, I could hear all the noises and smell the smells. Hmmmm, what "toys" can I sell to fund this expedition.

I feel your pain, would you like to hunt with me from May first until May tenth? If there is still room on the SAA flight I can get you in! 2750 for 5 animals. Do you have a passport? I will help you make this happen just say the word. jj<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Spike, are you feeling the pressure yet? LOL<BR>You didn't really need to stay married to that beautiful woman, did you? Of course, you could take her along and then you'd both be hooked! What a great plan! heeheehee- are we sneaky, or what? Hey, just to help you out, I'll give you $2,750 for your truck, plus airfare and you'll be on your way. I'll even drive you to the airport! You can always buy a used truck when you get back. LOL- Sheister

I've offered to smuggle Spike over in my second bag. Heck, besides rifles and ammo I only need a change of underwear and a clean shirt, I can put those in my carry on.<P>Spike, in my last email I said it was 18 days, 11 hours and 12 minutes before I leave.<P>Well, now its 18 days, 5 hours and 46 minutes!!! Time's a wastin', boy.<P>Gad, wouldn't we feel bad if we convinvced Spike to drop everything to hunt Africa and he got fired and then got divorced for being so irresponsible with a new baby in the house?<P>Okay Spike, think of spring bears as the Methadone for Africa wannabes. Spring Bear! Spring Bear! Ground Squirrels - thousands of 'em! Turkey! Breathe deeply, in the nose, out the mouth, in, out. There, doesn't that feel better now?

You guys have no idea of what I've done in the past inorder to hunt. I don't regret a thing because I love my life now but occasionally I wonder. It's a long story and when I get a minute I'll type it.<P>

tic tok tic tok tic tok tic tok<P><BR>If you do go it will proabaly be to shoot me<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.