Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting lets see those long range rifles.

The reason I occasionally post in this forum about my 1K BR rifle is because many LR hunters seem to be unaware of some accuracy enhancements that are common knowledge with LR BR shooters. I know I was amazed to learn them. There is a whole �nother level of accuracy out there that begins with 600 and 1000 yd BR. Now I realize it is fashionable for LR hunters to turn their nose up at LR BR shooters, but that elevated nose is a mistake. There is much that LR BR shooters can teach LR hunters about finding the ultimate accuracy in their rifles and loads. Also, don�t assume that a guy who has shot competitive BR he can�t shoot any other way. I know a few Highpower guys who were taught that amusing lesson not too long ago. There are also several big game animals that I imagine wish I had stayed on the bench.............................

At the 1K range near Tucson, we would frequently have high accuracy LR hunting rifles and tactical rifles show up at the firing line. On average and in good conditions, these rifles would shoot 10-12� five-shot groups. These rifles were very similar to the LR hunting rigs posted on this thread. Even my own 1x8 twist 6mm Rem varmint rifle shot about like that the first time I shot 1K BR. So I am not ignorant of how highly accurate LR hunting rifles shoot����������

Now the average dedicated 1K BR rifle would shoot 6� and better in good conditions at Tucson. I did once see a 1K BR shooter lay down a sub 5� group once with his LR hunting rifle. I think he even won for agg that day. Conversely, my 1K BR rifle (the one I show here) shot FIVE 4� and under groups in the time I competed with it at Tucson (IIRC, 9 matches). It won most of its matches, set club records twice, tied world records twice, and usually shot small group of the match.

This rifle was at the upper end of good 1K BR rifles, so it is not remotely out of hand to suggest it is the most accurate rifle at 1000 yds that has been shown on this thread so far. Now it would not be the most accurate rifle at 100 or 200 yds. It might do fair at 300, but a dedicated 300 yd rifle would wax it at 300 yds. It would do very well at 600 yds, but I�d have to give the edge to a dedicated 600 yd rifle unless the winds were gusty. My rifle is not even capable of shots the 2000+ yd rifle shown here can make. My rifle would be awkward to shoot from prone, though I would not hesitate to use it the way many LR hunters use their rifles: with a bench, a range-finder, and a spotter. In fact, if I was going to hunt that way, I�d use a rifle set-up that is very similar.

On second thought, if LR hunter�s egos are bothered by the obvious fact that a 1K BR rifle will out shoot a hunting rifle at 1000 yds from a bench, then I am wasting my time here.

Let me add, that snobbery aside, I've been handed my azz on a platter a few times by a BR shooter converted to HP. The knowledge of the wind was there, I generally did better as he was a condition shooter and I shot and ran, for 22 shots I could beat him generally, but let me just say on some days his condition shooting and the thousands of rounds downrange, he could stomp me hard, simply knowing how to break better shots consistently and damn quickly.

Blaine and I have talked a fair amount as he went over to highpower and there has never been anything arrogant.

I don't know why folks take accomplishments as braggin, I list mine at times to show I'm not simply spouting or repeating other thigns, but to show I've paid the dues and know a thing or two about what I speak from experience. And those things have paid off.

There is something to be learned from every sport, those that choose not to "cross train" loose out. We strived hard to cross train when competing and it broke up the boredom of being forced to shoot so many rounds when it became much more than shooting, it became real work. Takes more than a few rounds to feel that way. Most folks don't shoot enough to ever feel that way.

Jeff

Jeff,

I don't many here know what a high level of expertise is required to earn the "495" that is part of your handle.

I agree that the 600 yd leg at the end of an XC match is definitely work.........

1) I do nothing to be �fashionable.�
2) You turned your nose up at everybody in this thread. I simply pointed it out. Don�t pretend it was the other way around.
3) As with most generalizations, it simply isn�t true. Many LR hunters are LR BR shooters. And even among those who aren�t, I have seen nothing but respect for the sport among LR hunters. But they certainly will point out the differences in apples to oranges comparisons to a BR shooter with an elevated nose. In fact, it�s often the other way around�BR shooters calling LR hunters unethical because they know they need spotter shots and can�t imagine anybody shooting anything not needing the same.

Who did that? If Blaine has won a shootoff with every person and rifle in this thread, one single shot with no spotters under hunting conditions in a hunting location, I guess I missed it. If he had accomplished that it wouldn�t have been attitude, it would have been fact. Nothing wrong with talking up accomplishments. Assuming he could, about people he does not know and rifles he�s never seen fired before, that was bragging. That was elevating the nose.

My response had nothing to do with his actual accomplishments, just the elevated nose.

JonA
You and I are generally on the same page, I'm simply not seeing it here(arrogance), but thats cool with me, we all can see it differently.

Blaine
Nah, you got it wrong really, the 600 stage of the leg with no sighters is actually the easiest part for me. The killer in any leg match has 2 roles to play. First the mental part about standing, conditions not withstanding, and then 300 is the real killer, you don't loose the first shot only like at 600, you loose at least 1 to 10 shots due to elevation and wind calls. Both can kill you. I scope after the first shot, and reload at that time, most reload after the second. I think that is still legal per the rules. If I can't see the first round I shoot a few more and glance again, then finish the string. Sometimes you can save it and center it, most times you can't see a dang thing and so you loose or possibly loose 10 points. My 495 in fairness, was on an easy range, but was the range record for leg matches on that range at that time. I dumped all 5 points on my own stupidity. 3 standing, one at 300 and one at 600... just plain bad shots(except the standing, the gun was centered but wouldn't settle down and I just squeezed each shot and let em fall as they would)
That said, I did always LOVE legs, and often shot all matches as they were legs, not shooting sighters unless forced to. And sometimes then just dinging them in the berm. I prefer to change the rules to no sighters myself....

Jeff

My eyes were getting tired by the time I got to the 600 yd part, and that made it work.

Jeff,

This thread has actually been a source of great amusement with some of the guys I work with. I tell them I offended a couple of long range hunters by telling them my 1000 yd BR rifle was more accurate at 1000 yds than their hunting rifles. My coworkers just smile and shake their heads...........

Regardless, I do try to stay away from "drama." I'll just add a couple of guys to my ignore list and then stay off this forum. That way there is no chance I'll bruise any more egos by stating the obvious.

with all due respect Blaine, that wasn't really what you said.
no doubt at a range set at 1000 yards your rifle will beat mine every time. no one is arguing one distance.
what you said on your first post was that your rifle was the best, and it ruffled some feathers.
its a beautiful BR gun. I wouldn't want to pack it hunting up in the mountains myself. my gun is heavy, but not like that one is.
you have a 300 yard gun you said, do you carry that as well when you hunt? I only carry one gun myself, which is why I make sure I can shoot at several ranges before I go. i place my distance cap at 700 yards for hunting. any further and I would have to try to make it a greater distance, and that doesn't make sense to me.
this is a long range hunting thread, not a BR thread. I've shot BR, its allot of fun, but I wouldn't take a BR rifle hunting with me. if that's the rifle you hunt with, good on you, lets see some kills and put this little spat to bed. if you don't hunt with it and just wanted to brag a little, well I guess you have that right as well.
I'm not trying to fan the flames, I'm just wondering why you felt the urge to try and show everyone up with a whole different class of rifle.

If you don't see it, that's cool. I can understand that.






By the way, I'm much better looking than you. Actually, I'm the best looking person in this thread. Smartest too. By a long ways.

Thanks for being so supportive.

If you think the only reason somebody might tell you you're arrogant, ignorant and likely wrong is because they were offended, keep on thinking that if it makes you feel better.

As an "E basher" I thought I was already on your ignore list? What happened? And I thought you weren't going to respond anymore?

I just love the way you come into threads, throw around insults and then, instead of defending your position with facts and logic, you tell the other people they're now on your ignore list, relieving you of actually having to back up your position. How convenient.

How weak.

Here is EXACTLY what I said on my first post, with added bolding:

"I humbly submit a photo of the most accurate rifle at 1000 yds that has been shown on this thread."

What I said is correct. Obviously. If a couple guys here weren't so hung up on themselves they wouldn't have reacted so emotionally.



I said no such thing.



I explained why I post in this forum in post #2396334. Further, there is a group of LR deer hunters that use high end spotters, portable bench rests, and LR BR class rifles to shoot deer at 700-1100+ yds. As such, what I showed would be a very good choice for that application.



I explained that also in post #2396334. Apparently Rost495 was the only one who got it............

But don't worry, after this thread peters out (maybe even before) I'll not even look at another post on this forum.

I must have misread when you talked about a dedicated 300 yard rifle.
you don't have to get all mad and huffy.
you didn't answer my questions on why you posted it, is it YOUR long range hunting rifle?
or did you just want to brag?

Blaine

Would hate to loose your input on long range stuff.
Here is a bit of 600 yard advice for iron sights issues. You may need to go larger or smaller aperture by then. You WILL want to use tinted lenses most times to recover contrast, contrast is SUPER important. Beyond that, simply making sure you wear sunglasses to rest the eyes if its bright, before you shoot, and then a super important thing... natural sugar, as in applesauce or real fruit juice, I usually have a container of applesauce and a can or half can of fruit juice about 20 minutes or so before, fructose or sucrose? I dont' recall but natural not just sugar. It helps a LOT. I'm not the only top shooter that does that.
Make sure if you have astigmatism, it has to be corrected out by your knoblochs for irons.

JonA
I agree by far you are the best lookign on this thread period. No submission required either..... grins...
As to Blaine stating most accurate gun, well I'll have to side with you just by a bit there, but thats Blaines world record gun, and you or someone else would have to have a really hot hummer to actually defend that one. I can see how that can be construed, I simply didn't and don't construe it that way.

As to the ignore things, I will plead ignorance, maybe I've missed previous threads that would slant my take, but as I've said Blaine and I have had civil discussions in every encounter.

Jeff

I answered your question as to the "why" in the last post I made to you. In that post I referenced an earlier post where I also answwered the "why." My current LR hunting rifle is a 300 RUM.

Enjoy your forum.

Blaine,
For what its worth I didnt see anything offensive about your post. Why would anyone post a pic of thier rifle here other than to show off a little bit, been guilty of it myself a time or two. To that end here is a pic of my latest LR rifle and a 3 shot 800 yard group shot with it.

Here is my 338AM. Kirby Allen took this pic....I do not have any wide open spaces in the SE like that. My camera fogged when I took it out of the truck to get the pic of the group, sorry for the quality.

Thank you.

I see a lot of hot hummers in this thread. Nobody�s claiming any are more accurate using his definition of accuracy, which seems to be all he cares about (on a nice, flat well manicured range, from a benchrest shooting at targets with nice rings for holding wind, a 5 or 10 shot group after any number of spotters�.). This is not the BR section, that definition is of little value for a hunting rifle (many pictured here would burn their barrels in a single day of such competition).

With most of these �less accurate� rifles pictured on bipods, the �some people hunt from a bench� is a copout. And maybe Blaine spends so much time in the mountains, shooting from one to the other across, up and down large valleys that he�s so good ad judging the wind and all the other air currents between him and the target, an inch or two in theoretical group size will translate into an actual accuracy advantage in the field for first round hits despite having two or three times as much wind drift and being much more affected by temperature, baro, angles etc. Maybe he�s just that good. Maybe I could beat Michael Jordan one on one too.

Don�t get me wrong, the 300 WSM is a fine round and with that sort of bench accuracy I�m sure the rifle he pictured would do very well in the above circumstances. But �obviously better� than every rifle in this thread? Including big, giant heavy ones specifically designed to do exactly that? For that type of accuracy? The type that actually matters for hunting? Give me a break.

And if he did have that much experience and talent making first round hits in such circumstances, he could tell us about it to defend his boasts. We could all learn something. That would be great.

I pretty much guarantee my factory 700P (+A5) will kill a bigger elk and/or mule deer this year than Blaines candy man gun...

depopulator
killing the bigger elk is more related to location and ability than the firearm.grins.

Jon
As to BR not teaching anything, I fervently disagree on that. I generally never shoot practice for hunting, all my practice was shooting matches with round targets..... yet it transfers so well to hunting I dont' see how folks can down that at all. Of course I have to shoot either 10 or 20 shot groups for my sport, and I do get sighters but don't use them if I can avoid it at all. Anyway it doesn't prevent me from having more than a few one shot kills. Its taught me when to shoot or not. Of course I strive for perfect scores, and I may be pickier than most.
Point being, shooting and conditions are just that, regardless of the target. In matches you HAVE to shoot, but you also know what to expect before firing the first sighter. And whether you'd risk that on game or not.
At least for me in highpower, I can read any range when I arrive, having shot since the late 80s, and almost visualize what smoke would do on the wings of wind...(on eof the guard teams runs smoke canisters at times to show whats goign on during practice sessions so I've seen and can visualize) and most top shooters know that also. Many know that there are many field positions that cannot be shot, IE too much going on with the wind to be 200% sure.

Caliber vs accuracy... thats an issue, but do we sacrafice accuracy for power?
Is the bottom line here that Blaines gun is a measly 300WSM?
What is our definition of LR.
Its getting kinda muddy here.
Now where is that dead horse picture again....

Well that's great because I never said any such thing.

I'm not down on it at all. Please stop putting words into my mouth so you can argue against them. Argue against what I actually said.

Again, where on earth are you getting I said it "would prevent" such a thing?

Blaine's problem was he took it to the other extreme, claiming it made him and his rifle not just better than everybody else here, but so much better he could say he was better than people he didn't even know and rifles he had never seen before, much less shot. That's where the BS flag comes out.

Of course there's a lot of overlap in skills and equipment. The argument that there is not is one you made up and put in my mouth--I never said those things.

I am pointing out it's not EXACTLY the same, as Blaine must think to brag being good in one makes him better than everybody else at the other.

Did you actually look at some of the rifles posted here? When all you care about is one shot and the rule book is out the window so you can use a 20-50lb rifle shooting a necked down .408 CheyTac, yeah you're going have an advantage over anybody shooting a "normal" round in uncertain conditions, even if it is very accurate with the 9th and 10th shot in good conditions. Arguing because it's so good with that 9th and 10th shot means the big gun has no advantage on the 1st is absurd.

Especially when he's never even seen these rifles before! How do you justify his claims about rifles he has never seen?

Like me telling you I'm better looking than you without having any idea what you look like. Pretty stupid.

I ask you read carefully and think about what I'm actually saying. It seems the only things you disagree with me on are things I haven't actually said.

Jon
Maybe I missed it all in parts..... I"ve had a funeral this week and a lot of other stress, and I am guilty of reading into things what I want to, especially when I'm glancing through a thread.

My apologies to you for that.

Jeff