Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game 3 " high @ 100 yards

bobin - i like the way you think........

Sign me up on Bob's side of the arguement.....3 inch high has worked well for me for the last 35 years or so .

It worked for Keith , O'Connor , Hagel, and Page.....and it works for me too .

What some apparently don't realize , if you do get a really close shot at 20 or 30 yards , the 3 inch high sighting puts you right on poi , better than a lower setting would , and as Bob mentioned , you are still almost dead nuts out to 50 yards .

And if you really do have to make a thread the needle shot at 100 or 150 , it is very easy to judge a several inches lower hold .

Somehow, while this stuff is fodder for conversation, I don't think the range at which a person sights his rifle in is proof of intelligence, or lack thereof, or moral fiber.
Steelhead, while you have a preference for some methods and materials, I suspect that your success is much more related to the amount you practice, experience and inate ability than the presence or absence of turrets on top of a scope tube.
From 50 yards to about 300 yards, anything from iron sights to about a 14 power scope on an appropriate rifle should allow for a quick killing shot on big game.
Like somebody said, this stuff ain't rocket surgery...

Fred

What many fail to realize is that most carts don't arch-out until 150+ with normal scope height. Sighting in 3" high at 100 may put you 4" high at 150. While experienced shooters are fine with holding alittle low, you'll have a ton of folks that get too excited and either miss high or just clip the top of the animal when they would have been high lung with a deadnutz zero or 1" high zero at 100.

For me knowing what a rifle does at long range is key to long range shooting. I usually don't shoot at 100 yards unless I'm doing intial load development to find sweet spots and quickly weed out bad loads. I find a load that shoots good at 200, then zero at 225-250 which usually gives me about 1.5" high at 100, but can be up to 2" high(referring to relatively flat shooters).

I'm leaving tomm for WY 'lopes and have my 7RM with 140 Berger VLDs zeroed for 225. That's just alittle over an inch high at 100, only around 4" low at 300, and about 14" low at 400.

Have a Good One,

Reloader7RM

Dead on at 100 for me. I have not shot an animal past 100yds ever. Most are shot much closer.

I like the 3 inch high zero, having been convinced by JOC at an early age. I have even sighted in 4 inche high at 100 yards with my 30-06 running 180 grain bullets for elk hunting. If I am using a rifle for a specific area like I am with my Whelen at the deer lease 1 inch high at 100 yards is fine as it is unlikely to be used on a shot farther than 200 yards on that property.

I've sighted in my rifles 3" @ 100 for over 20 years, in line with the MPBR theory. I have been shooting a 7mag, 270, 30-06, and 7-08 during that time frame. It takes most of the guesswork out of the equation for me, especially in the open country I usually hunt. I don't like turrets for hunting scopes, which makes this MPBR setup perfect for me.


BobinNH....just read your post...couldn't (and didn't ) possibly say it better than you did.

Some of these differences in technique are a east v. west/open v. thick adaptation. tzone says he has never shot an animal past 100; I can think of only 2 in the past dozen years that I have shot at less than 100. So it only makes since that our techniques would evolve differently.

I tend to go more for 2 inches high at 100. Years ago I did sight in a 25-06 at more like 3" high and lob a round over an antelope's back right at the midrange max, so that taught me to bring it down some.

But these days I am using more dot-based reticles. I sight the first dot in at 300 and then do some shooting at closer and more distant ranges to map out the trajectory (the real trajectory, not some computer-based approximation) to as far as I intend to shoot.

I cut my teeth reading JOC. He was writing in an era before rangefinders, before dot-based reticles, and before turrets. He was a hugely practical hunter willing to adopt innnovation (e.g., the then-new .270). I suspect he would be using something other than a standard reticle and the 3" high rule today.

It'd be hard to convince me that 3" high at 100 yards is EVER good. If it's a far shot... you'll hold high... everytime... almost regardless of your 'zero' distance... it's instinct. Plus, most folks shoot high under pressure anyway (buck fever, yanking on the trigger, shooting off 'hard' rests, etc.)... couple that with the 3-5" high at 150... and you get a lot of critters escaping unharmed... that should have been next to the mashed potatoes. Been there, done that...

Bob,
Your posts on this subject should be mandatory reading for anyone hunting out west. Hunting back east, I can't really comment on, but in CO, WY, MT, even AK where I've hunted, the shots at 100 yards or less are to be savored because they are few and far between. Especially if you are hunting on Public Land where other hunters are swarming the area. The game animals do not stand around waiting for you to figure everything out before you can shoot them.

I've seen many, many hunters miss shot opportunities because they were messing with their equipment when they should have been on that animal and taking the shot, which is why guides, as Bob mentions, hate seeing guys with all these gadgets. The guides know that when the animal is in range and presenting a shot, time is short and a guy has to be ready. That about goes double for anyone hunting in Africa. I believe some of the confusion on how to sight in for open western hunting comes from people who have only recently taken up rifle hunting, finally bothered to think about where they should sight their rifle in, or who are going on their first western hunt where the ranges are expected to be over 100 yards. I, personally, was trained from an early age to find the spot behind the animals shoulder one half to one third up, or on the shoulder depending on how the animal was standing, and to take the shot. I wasn't taught to memorize the trajectory of my rifle or to worry about how close or far the animal was. If the animal was within 250-300 yards, I knew I could shoot and hit that animal without adjusting my hold using a 3" high sight-in. As one of the resident experts on this site who has been compared to JOC, and who some seem to idolize, Mule Deer (JB) just had an article in one of the Wolfe pubs that talked about "pointy end forward and hit em in the front half." Not a tough concept and one that a lot of guys would benefit from heeding. The less you have to think about things, for most people, the better off. I'm no exception, which is why I like to keep things simple.
Test

All of my rifles are sighted in at between 2.5 and 2.8in. high at 100 yds. Several years back, I sighted all of them in at +3.0 at 100 yds., but rethought that height approach and now do it a bit differently.

I don't really have a 100, 200 or 300 yd. POI in mind goin' in. After finding the load that works best for my rifle given the game I'm after, I run a ballistics chart given MV, BC, temp., elevation and bullet weight of that particular load. I am looking for an impact point at 100 yards that doesn't allow the trajectory of my bullet to attain a height any higher than 3.5 in. throughout it's flight. Prior to this method, when I used a +3.0, 100 yd. mark, I found through both practical application at the range and through my ballistic charts as well, that my bullets path oftentimes took it to a height of 4.0 inches or a little over when passing through the 160 to 180 yd. ranges. Some might suggest that +4.0in. high at 175ish is perfect, but that +5.0 is too high and +3.0 in. is too low. For those that pick their POI's through this method or others, rather than choosing the standard +3.0in. @ 100yds., we do so through our own personal experiences and preferences. Mine tell me that no more than +3.5in. at any range works best for me, based on where and how I hunt.

So now, rather than before while using solely a standard of +3.0 in. at 100 yds., most of my rifles have a POI of around +2.7 or +2.8 @ 100 yds. Not enough difference on that end to hardly notice. But at the 175ish range, coincidentally the range that I both take a lot of game at and is also the peak trajectory of most big game bullets, I feel that I've given myself a little bit better opportunity to place my shot more accurately into the vitals (which I consider to be 6 in., whether deer or elk).

In regards to many things in life, "more is better". I feel that as far as accuracy is concerned, "less is better". Less room for error, less need to compensate for drop or rise and less time necessary to calculate such things.

Sure, a measly 1/2 in. at 175 yds. may not be a deal breaker and actually having a peak trajectory at that range of +4.0in. might prove beneficial when we find ourselves pondering that 400-500 yd. shot, but most shots occur at 70 yds. per a study done awhile back and likely still applies today. But even if that 70 yd. average today has now been extended to 120 yds. due to all the progress/upgrades in glass and reloading components, shooting/hunting devices or just the way that we choose to hunt in general, it makes even more sense to me to have approached finding my POI's and zero's as I have.

I've made shots further than any of the ranges stated here, not many, but I have and they were DRT shots. I practice at up to 600 yds. and know what each rifle/cartridge I use can do. Ballistic charts help and if used properly can be quite spot-on, but "doin' the work" at the range IS the bottom line.

If I found myself presented with more 400+ yd. shots than 175 yd. shots, my 100yd. POI would be different and should be. As I become a more experienced hunter and perhaps luckier as well, I find that my shots have become a bit shorter over the years. With that notable difference and/or change, I felt it only prudent to approach my POI's/drops a bit differently as well.

My way and perhaps mine alone, but it has been no less effective than how I approached this aspect of shooting/sighting-in before, but perhaps it does now allow me a bit more confidence at the shot knowing that if I do my job correctly, there's a bit less room for error.

And in this instance, less is better.....................

Good luck to all this season.......shoot small.

I must hunt in a differnt CO than Test1238. Out of about 35 elk ,I can only remember 4 that were more than 100 yds, and one of them was in NM. In fact I can't recall many that were over 50 yds.

I haven't shot many speed goats. Probaly 20 or so. Most of them were a 100 yds or less.

As for deer,it has been many years since I actually went hunting for deer alone. Most are shot while riding in or out of elk hunring areas. Again,less than 100 yds is the norm.

I can agree with BobinNH,if I find myslef hunting more open areas, but I don't,so I can't see sighting in for some distances that I very very seldom shoot at. I'm not a worldly hunter that I have hunted all the western states and AK, I just plod along on CO public land and keep my freezer full.

When I was a youngster I hunted the PA Laurels with a 30-30.Usualy sighted in at 50 yds. Can't see why anyone would preach that they need to be sighted in 3" high at 100 when you were lucky to see any deer more than 35 yds

My primary hunting rifle is an .06 which I use 220 gr RN sighted in at 100yds dead on. I also have a load with 180 gr Gamekings that shoot dead on at 200 yds with the scope setting at the 100 yd impact as the 220 gr.The 180 gr impacts 200 high at 100 yds.
I have carred some of those 180 gr for over ten years,and haven't shot an animal with them yet. I have shot two elk at 300yds + and one deer at about 300 with the 220 gr loads. All were one shot kills.
I do shoot the loads at 200 and 300 yds to see what the zero is and compensate for the drop if need be.I can't remember any lost opportunities because of this method.

As mentioned, what works for one,doesn't necessarily work for all, so I don't see much sense in sniping at others who don't conform to my methods. JOC probably never hunted where I do

Still not sure what is so difficult about changing your sight-in height at 100 yards to match your area...

If I leave here tomorrow for a Wyoming antelope hunt I can change it so I'm 3" high at 100 or whatever tickles me. When I get back I can move it back to dead nuts on at 100. I see a bunch of folks complicating [bleep] again, but that's what people seem to do best.

I'm not running them 3" high here and for reason.

I sight my big game rifles in at 3" high at 100 yards, and have been doing so since the mid-60's. The rounds I use have a mv of between 2700 and 3000, and this combination works well for me, for I have never shot over an animal in all those years, and I have never shot at an animal over 300 yards away. With this method, I can hold on the spot I want to hit, and with game the size of deer (and larger) 3 or 4 inches high or low has not made any difference. I've missed a few, but that was from shooter error, not from sight-in procedures.

My most embarrassing moment was three years ago; I flat-out missed a nice blacktail buck, standing still in the open only 90 yards away - with three straight shots!! I was shooting offhand and just kept jerking the trigger. I went straight to the range after that, hoping that the session would prove that the gun was no longer sighted-in, only to find that I had no one to blame but myself - the gun shot a nice group at 2.5 inches high at 100. I couldn't blame the 1/2 inch, particularly since it was 1/2 inch closer to the center.

+1 rickt..I think a lot depends on where you hunt and/or live. When I go to an area that is new to me I ask the outfitter what to expect within reason. For me where I hunt 1"@100 is just fine. It seems easier for me to think hold high than think hold low. Maybe that's why some folks set at 3" high shoot over?..seems like there are more shots over than under on a miss. So, if I was going out west, I would set at 2.5-3" high100 and always hold on hair..I fully agree the best thing is to shoot the rifle and see what it does at 2,3,and 400yds..but when you live out east it is VERY difficult to find a range to shoot at over 100yds!..just my 2ct's

I've never cared for a rule that forces everyone into one mold, nor have I found that taking the approach which is dumbed down for the least common denominator is particularly satisfactory for most applications I care anything about.

Lots of my hunting is not center punching shoulders, chest, etc., so my margin for error is not several inches. 4 to 5 inches high at 150 yards is unacceptable to me - it's a miss on a head or neck shot, and I have made dozens of those kinds of shots the last couple of years. Along with hunting mature bucks and filling the freezer for our family, I cull more deer most years than lots of guys shoot in a lifetime, and most of the does we meat shoot are neck or head shots at lots of different ranges - very often 150 to 200 yards. They are almost always in brush or cedar breaks, and threading the needle is a very appropriate description for many of these shots. I don't shoot offhand very often, and if I do the shot is so close and such a gimme that it almost doesn't matter if I'm 5" high or dead on at 100.

I also shoot lots of varmints without huge margins for error - shoulders on a bobcat aren't that big.

If I was shooting elk through the shoulders in open country all the time, I would hunt differently, but I don't and the old 3" high at 100 and hold on hair out to 400 is not the best approach for every application, and it's not the best approach for most of my hunting.

It is just way too easy to zero at 100 or 200 and know that the next mark is 300, then 400, 500, etc. on my TDS, Ballistic Plex, Dot, B&C or whatever, or, as Steelhead has explained, spin a turret before shooting or set the turret where you want it for a particular hunt. If an animal is out past 400 and I want to shoot him, I've never had time to make a good shot where I didn't also have time to range him and put the right dot on him or spin a turret.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I'm not sure this forum is representative of many hunters who don't know what they're doing, and who don't care enough to try to figure it out, so I'm not sure responses and advice should be tailored to those guys. The approach that works best for the guy who shoots 10 rounds a year is probably not the best for guys who shoot 1000.

Just another perspective, but I've never liked the one size fits all approach.

DJ

I like the part about mixing the old with the new. I'd turn it around on you a bit, though, and say that doing that kind of obsoletes the max-PBR concept a little, though, debateably perhaps arguably maybe a little.

KNOWING what works for a guy is really what is most important. Since none of us are standing in the other guy's boots here, my presumption is that anyone who half pays attention, and shoots their rifle a bunch, knows what works for them. And has good reasons for doing it like they do it. And so, I respect what they are saying and listen carefully because, as is often the case, "there truth everywhere". If you aren't careful, you'll step in some.

When I zero my .358 at 100 yards, it's because I KNOW it works really really well for me that way for blacktail hunting in western Oregon. By the same token, if someone from Wyoming says that a 3" zero works great for them... I'm listening, I'm listening, I really am.

It's blanket statements that tend to be much more debateable though. I would HOTLY debate with Mr. Wyoming as to whether his 3" zero is best for where *I* hunt, and how I hunt. Another way to phrase it would be that the 3" high zero is being sold as a general-purpose wunderkind, while those of us willing to specialize a little can most certainly zero in a manner that is less generalized, perhaps, but MORE appropriate for our circumstances. Yeah?

I find myself agreeing with Steelhead (alert: sign of the apocolypse! )... EVEN WITH say a 100-yard zero, shooting farther is pretty simple (in terms of compensating for drop) as long as a guy is up to speed with his shooting iron. Pure holdover works fine, for me, out to 400 yards or so. Much better is a ranging reticle or elevation turret. To use my .358 as an example again, it's zeroed dead on at 100, and the B&C reticle subtensions line up at 250, 325, and 375 yards. That's pretty slick right there, and took me all of a few range sessions to work out.

For my more general-purpose rifles I am zeroing where the reticle "wants" me to zero. Which is roughly a 200-yard zero. That still gives a decent PBR for quick, reasonable-range shots, while making everything line up just so out to 500, 600 yards (longer than I'll be shooting, but that's another contentious thread).

At any rate, there's many ways to skin a deer (ooh, I'm good <g>), and choosing a 100-yard zero is a perfectly valid thing to do as long as a guy understands what he's shooting.

-jeff

Great pic, one I'm quite familiar with here in the PNW. Tough to hunt.....you bet. Any better or more rewarding way to go after them......haven't found it yet.

My 4X4 Blacktail that I posted during lasts years hunt came from the same thick confines as your pic shows. Just 60 yds. away, through a stand of thick alders and devil's club from where I shot my buck, a 2 year old clear cut extended for about a mile, from which it's dead center is where my son took his 2X2 the day before. We don't dial up and down in the few seconds it takes when moving from one environment/landscape to the other. Not accustomed to it and therefore, not proficient at it.

As most of us do, I own rifles/cartridges that suit the area and game I'm after. The venerable 30-30 or handgun would more than suffice for these Peek-a-boo blacktails in this type of cover, but when moving to the clearcut, as in last years scenario (which will be this years as well), the 30-30 would be inadequate, for the most part, given the vast, open and far reaching clear-cut and all it's little exposed fingers.

My son and I typically use a 25-06 and a 270WSM for deer in these parts, sometimes an '06 when I'm feelin' nostalgic. They all impact about +2.6in. @ 100yds. So far, whether in the thick stuff or out in the clearcut, these POI's have done the job. Knowing your rifle/load and how to compensate for different ranges and angles, plus knowing a lot about the game you seek (prior to and during the shot), has much to do with experiencing a successful hunt.

Good luck to all this season............

+1

What I do is not necessasarily the best method. But, it works for me. It may not work for you. I don't base my enjoyment of hunting nor guage my success (or lack thereof) by following the crowd or comparing myself to other hunters.

I had a river guide say to me one time when I asked what I thought were our chances were that day, "The river and I will give you the best the day has to offer."

Now, I'm going down to Steelhead's part of the hunting world this November to hunt deer with my son. I might just consider sighting my rifle at 1" high at 100 for those conditions and terrain. Probably won't take the 7Mag either. Hmmm..... a .308Win with 2x7 scope might be just about perfect for those POW blacktails and black bears.

A 2" high zero makes more sense.