Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Best Bino for around $400/ porro or roof ?

I am looking for the absolute best bino for the dollar and came across the Minox BD 8x44 BP for $350 at Doug's. I am using a pair of Pentax 8x43 DC SP as a comparison and wonder what everyone feels would be better overall, the Minox porro's or the Pentax roofs. That being said, if the porros are better for the money (size not an issue), then are there even better porro's out there that outshine the HG 8.5x43 BR and cost less? I really would like to keep the money spent around $400. Can someone bring me up to speed......

I think the absolute best binocular for the dollar comes in three places. The Leupold Yosemite, the Minox IF and the new Promaster ELX ED. There is a lot to choose from but this is where the value lies. There are some decent porro glasses and the Minox you wonder about are probably good. I can't comment directly on them, since I've never seen them. The porro has a generally better 3-D dimension to its view than does a roof. To me this view is best served with a wide field of view. That's where the Minox Porro falls short. So so a lot of other decent Porro glass, the fov is no wider than the Pentax SP roof you have. So, in a porro, at your stated price range, I'd look at the Swift Audubon 8.5x44. You can get it for about $250 or in the ED glass version for about $370. This has nearly a 100' wider fov than the Minox porro or the similar in appearance Leupold Cascade Porro. At your stated price range, the Pentax SP you have is pretty much a roof prism standard at that level. If it suits what you need, then you will better it only with the best value for a roof, Promaster ELX ED at $500. This has been chased around the campfire quite a bit, so recent info is right out there.

Thanks Steve, I will take a hard look at the Promaster and the Swift. Your info is spot on what I am looking at But, I still would like to hear from someone about the Minox since they are easy to get from Doug. I will PM Doug as to his take. I am also researching for my secretary for a purchase for her husband this hunting season.

SteveC,
Did you perhaps mean the Leup. "Mesa" instead of the Cascade? I think the Cascade is a roof prism if I'm not mistaken.

Leupold makes both roof and porro prism models of their Cascade line.

Ahh, I see. I actually took a look at the roof Cascades yesterday and was quite impressed considering the price.

Remember there's usually about a factor 2 (or even 3 at the lower end) in price between porros and roofs of the same quality.

You may meet your "$400 quality" level for a lot less than $400 with a porro.

The Swift porros are nice but they do have a litany of problems that affect some people (and not others): usable ER is low; people with big noses/deepset eyes may have problems; bridge not a rigid as it could be; maybe not as waterproof as it could be. Very nice optics but it may have ergonomic issues. Try before you buy (or make sure you can return it).

IMO save your cash and wait until you can afford a good set of bino's , in the $400 pricerange you are just comparing junk to junk.
B

The only downside that I have seen to the internal focus porros like the Minox you mentioned is that in the 8x versions the field of view is fairly narrow for an 8x bin (330 feet). I haven't found this to be too much of an issue with the 8x42 roofs but with the porros it gives an interesting effect when you combine that narrow field of view with the wider spacing of the porro's objectives.

The 10x42 porro should be better in that its true and apparent field of view is more comparable to higher end roofs.

I guess one thing I am trying to find out is if any company has put in the higher quality features into a porro that are now commonplace on the roofs to make their performance competitive to the porros. That being said, it would make sense that one could have the performance of a $1000 roof in a much less expensive porro. I used the $400 mark because I thought Minox might me making that bino in their new line. It would seem that since very few are interested in porros now, that someone would improve on the inherent high quality of the porro and make a real "best value" all around bino.

TxJW: we've had an extended discussion on birdforum about this.

There seemed to be a mix of fashion and ergonomics (rather than optical quality) driving the change from roofs to porros despite the difference in price.

But now we've got to that interesting situation where roofs dominate so they bring an greater revenue for the makers (would you prefer 20% of $500 or 20% of $1500). So there is no business reason to makes top end porros any more even though some people want them (i.e. there is still a market there).

This is usually rationalized (e.g. by Nikon when asked why don't they make a modern version (waterproofed, newest AR coatings, GRP enclosures to reduce weight) of the Nikon SE porros) as "not wishing to confuse the market".

Yeap, the market would be confused if they looked through a $500 pair of bins that looked as good as the $1500 to $2000 bins. They'd be so confused that more of them might buy the porros.

So this is an interesting example of a market failure (the failure to provide the best product at the lowest price). Of course someone could just get into the business of making excellent porros but to get the financing one would ahve to answer some interesting questions (like "don't roofs generate more revenue?"). So it will take an outsider to change things.

Oh, wait, what about the Promaster ED and the Hawke ED and their successors from China? $500 bins that come to withing a gnat's whisker of the alpha bins? This is pretty much the description of a disruptive innovation from a bunch of outsiders. Whether they also see this hole in the market is another matter: if their roofs are that good at that price point ($429 until Hawke raised the price) what would their good porros cost? Or to invert the question "how good a roof do you have to buy to equal a Bushnell Legened 8x42 porro?" then scale up from there. I suspect top end porros would probably retail for around $300 or so. That's less than a Swift 820ED sells for today (which one would expect).

Interesting times lie ahead for the top end bin makers. Of course some people will just buy on brand others perhaps on service.

If optical quality is indeed superior, I will buy whatever available on the market. Beat me, I am not a brand loyalist.

JW, where in E TX are you? I'd be happy to let you take a look at the Minox IFs. I demoed the Promasters and was very impressed with the glass. I think the Minox are probably the best value going.

Edit: Sorry, I now see you are looking at another Minox bin. Offer still open.

Prostrate,
I am in Jefferson County which is in the Southeastern most county of Texas. I was looking at the porro Minox for my secretary, but am also interested in the Promaster or Minox HG for myself. I can't afford the really "good" glass at $1000 and am hearing from youall that these two are the best going.

The "Made in China" aspect totally kills the appeal for some, and certainly dampens it for me.

"I was looking at the porro Minox for my secretary,..."

Probably a good thing you weren't looking with the porro Minox at your secretary.

I love my Minox 6.5 IF. And my Vortex Diamondbacks. 2 for less than $400!

stumpy

You are looking for the "absolute best for the dollar" in the $400 range ?
You already have an SP. They are very close to my Nikon LX-L 8X32's and my Leica 8X42 BA's. That means I must stack them and look carefully to see the difference. As a practical matter, you are going to have a tough time seeing much more with a like weight 8X in the field. Even if it is a Nikon LX-L or a Leica.
The big advantages to the roof design is they can be made tougher, that means they stay in alginment longer/better and more waterproof. Or they stay fog free longer/better or something. They are more compact, etc. At any rate, the SP has been around for a while and has a solid rep for being tough and waterproof.
I'm not one to believe that field of view makes much difference in a good binocular. But I have noticed that the porro design does give more a "3-D view." That will help you see things that tend to blend into the background. Say that sneaky buck you've been trying to get a shot at.
Off hand, I'd say it's time to decide just what else you need in a good binocular. You have the light 8X need pretty well covered.
So, what else can you use ? How about a really light 6-6.5X. See Leupold's Katmai or Yosemite 6X's.
Or how about a heavy 10X, like a 10X50 SP. If you've got the extra money, an ED Pentax, or I hear the Meopta are a hair better. E

I would think Leica, Zeiss, Leupold and Nikon would lead the pack in Optical quality, but I'm surprised Steiner has not been mentioned. I have a pair of Military Marine binoculars that I use for hunting and I liked them so much, I bought a larger pair to keep on my boat. I think I paid around $200 for the smaller pair and $300 for the larger. I have no regrets with my purchases. -Tom

I also recently bought a pair of Steiner 8x30s, with the fixed/auto focus, and like them. For around $200 they're decent. The auto focus works, very light, decent enough glass, not good in very low light however. Used them on my last hunt, kinda nice not to be focusing all the time.

I recently looked at a bunch of 8x32/40/42 porros for around $200 and thought the Leupold Mesa was probably the best to my eyes and hands. Although the Vixen Foresta seemed to have an image a little bit better, I was turned off by the first sample brought to me which had uneven oculars, a definite QC/QA problem. Here are the porros I looked at:
Audubon Raptor 8x42mm
Bushnell Legend 8x42mm
Celestron Ultima DX 8x32
Leupold Mesa 8x42
Nikon Action Extreme 8x40
Pentax PCF WP II 8x40
Vixen Foresta 8x42

I didn't get a chance to see the Leupold Cascade 8x42 porros, something I will remedy with another trip to Middleton.

I did look at the Swift Audubon 8.5x44 porros and again found that I liked them, even with their minimal eye relief (I wear eyeglasses). However, the salesperson asked that I try a roof prism for the same price ($350) even though I said I was interested only in porros. She handed me the Vortex Fury 8x42mm roof prism binoculars to compare with all that I had looked at. Comparing the Vortex Fury to the Swift Audubons was actually quite a shock. The Furys did not have the depth and 3D look of the Swifts as the view was noticibly flat in comparison with the Swifts, BUT the Furys were definitely as sharp and clear edge to edge. Oddly, they gave the impression of being better glass. So much for the axiom that dollar for dollar you will get a better view with a porro over a roof. I would recommend that they be given a chance. Both Eagle Optics and CameralandNY will take them back for a purchase price refund within 30 days if you don't want them.