Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Interesting comment from Charlie Sisk

I don't disagree at all with what Sisk said;nor do I disagree with what JB said about the 270-300 magnums if you anticipate shots past,say 300 yards.The limiting statement of course,is the phrase "...out to 300 yards...",or some other arbitrary distance limitation.If you can assure yourself,absolutely, that you will not shoot an elk past 300 yards,then fine.I have never been on an elk hunt where I could predetermine the distance at which I was to be offered a shot that was within my capabilities.

The same premium bullets that give the standard cartridges elevated performance, can be the problem as velocity drops off at distance because they may not expand as well at long distance from the 308; whereas the higher initial and retained velocity of the bigger cases have the advantage in bullet expansion at long range.

At shorter distances,using a premium bullet,the higher velocity of the magnum case hurts nothing.Said another way, the 300 Weatherby is just as effective INSIDE 300 yards as the 308;and the 300 has all the advantage PAST 300 yards.

All of this assumes,of course, that a guy can shoot equally well with one or the other. I do not agree with the notion that those who use a magnum class rifle, cannot hunt, or are not good hunters, or fine shots.This is myth. I don't make the mistake of categorizing hunters based on the equipment they use; I look more at their ability to use what they have, regardless of what it may be.It is true,though, that a lot of people running around with 300 magnums have no idea of how to get full use from them,and are better off with a 308 or 30/06 that they can shoot.

My rancher buddy in Wyoming has probably killed over 50 elk of all sizes with the 250 Savage,the 270 Winchester, and a few with the 300 Winchester Magnum. He likes the 270 best,but if you ask him,can he see a difference between a 300 magnum and a 270 as distances stretch, he will tell you, absolutely, yes!The 300 just hits harder.(grin).

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The bow hunters get closer. Are bow hunters better hunters than rifle hunters?

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no they just have more patience!

JBLEDSOE: Nope; not necessarily!

Open letter to Danadair and others
Dan
Just because I am not a rabid supporter of George Bush, I fall into the classification of what you call a "Libtard". Twenty years ago, my views would have placed me solidly in the middle of the political spectrum, but I am now one of the people you neoconservatives love to hate.
I am a veteran, have spent most of my life working in one capacity or another on public works projects, have raised two handicapped children, and other than a passion for wild women, guns and hunting have led pretty much a law abiding life.
Yet, it's ME that you neoconservatives love to hate, not the drug dealer down at the school selling drugs to your kids, not the scum bags that rip off the military establishment for billions of dollars a year, while vets languish in underfunded hospitals, not the gang members that have taken over our cities, not the corrupt corporate officials that have robbed the workers of the country of their retirements as in the case of Enron, not the corrupt politicians on both sides of the aisle that show nothing but contempt for our constitution, but people like ME that you characterize as "Libtards". Well, I have two college degrees,am a member of Mensa (former, actually) and also was a member of Intel. You can look up what that is, but last I checked, it was a group made up of people that are a long way from being retards.
You name callers are right out of the mold of Tim McVeigh, Hitler's followers, and the followers of Saddam Hussein.
I do not say that lightly. Democracy, the only ideology that I fervently espouse, is based on reasoned debate, sylogistic reasoning and deductive reasoning. ( I am sure you know what all those mean, because you are mentally superior, right?) You, on the other hand, resort to name calling and bullying, simply because your points of view shrink from reason like a cockroach shrinks from light.
I stay out of the Campfire Forum because I hate the neo-Nazi like name calling that goes on there. When you and others come into the gun and/or hunting forums, you should keep politics out of it.
Anybody that feels the need to come in here and indulge in political drive by sniping, the ultimate cheap shot, ends up in my ignore room. I'll discuss differing points of view with anyone, but will not tolerate the childish name calling that you used in this thread.

Fred Royce

I'm in agreement with you Brian as well as JB. To that end i do not own a 'magnum' at the present. Experience as taught me a good alround round to 400yds is a 3006 with a 168TSX at 2900 fps MV wiil do naything an old skool 7mag will do in northern BC. I like the 375 HH but my whelen with 250gr bullets deal with animals in a similiar manner. For me , bigger animal means bigger bullet. 'Cause I have noted know differance in my whelen , with a 250gr bullet at 2450 0r 2680 fps MV, PBR is the only change not killing power or abilitiy to cause distruction.

I have long said that it's been my observation that most rounds and shooters are equal to 300 yds (note I didn't say 301...grin)

Dober

I'd have to agree with Charlie. I think as many of us get older and wiser, we see that horsepower is not what kills animals. It's good sense, good judgement and proper bullet placement.

Continue to shoot your magnums if they make you warm and fuzzy. Me, they just make sore and angry. I'll take the lighter recoiling cartridges like the .308, 7-08, .260, .270 etc. They kill on the sharp end without severely wounding on the other end.

I think some of a person's cartridge selection is age dependant- When I was younger, I yearned for foot pounds and velocity- Every round had to be pushed to the limit and then some.
Now, I tend to use smaller cartridges and also focus less on the rifle and round it's chambered and focus more on the hunting techniques and skills.

Fred

If dead is dead to you, I agree with Charlie, but if you like DRT shots, then the nod goes to the 300 WBY. Having shot over 30 head of game with each of the two disputed calibers has led me to this conclusion. Roy had it right about the energy killing to some extent. A expanding bullet exploding inside a deer from a 3000++ fps impact has a more dramatic effect on game that a 2500 fps impact. This only stands to reason. If you stand by this 308 is as good as a 300 WBY argument straight across the board, then you might as well through the 300 Savage, 30-30 and 30 carbine in there. Each is easily compared to the 308 as it is to the 300. If you don't mind a deer or elk running 30 yds before expiring, then I guess there is no difference, but I have seen more bang-flops with chest cavity shot animals using the 300 than the 308. Now when it comes to elk, I haven't seen ANY bang flops using premium bullets unless the CNS was involved.

They shouldn't have a special season. Throw them in the mix with general gun season and we'll see how things turn out for them.........

Mind reader...



Better yet trade them our gun seasons...

How about we give the bow hunters a special season but they have to use only the technology that was COMMON in the 60's when special seasons for archery were started- Recurve bows, no rangefinders, and so on?
Royce

I think they should use whatever they want to, just like gun hunters.

They can hunt in areas where guns aren't allowed (city limits, etc.), that should be enough.

Outside of youth seasons, "special" seasons are for snobs IMO....especially when they coincide with the rut to the exclusion of others.

Sorrie Charie, I like ya but you're wrong when it comes to elk.

Having killed multiple elk with both.

No 308 on the planet is going to match up to a 300 WBY 200 grain bullet at 3,000 fps. Especially on a public land hunt where the elk are all hyped up.

From 50 yard jump shots in the timber to 300 yard hits.

I've DRT'd them like a hammer with the 300 NOT the 308. I've passed on shots with the 308.

No comparison.

I don't think that follows. For a given target animal there seems to be a threshold above which it doesn't matter too much which cartridge was used given all the usual caveats about proper bullets, shot placement et cetera. The argument is whether or not the 308 is above the threshold. Just because a 30-30 is as close to a 308 as the 308 is to a 300 Wby. in velocity does not imply that if the 308 is over the threshold then the 30-30 must be too.

BTW, I'm not saying the 308 is or isn't over the threshold.

The statement made in the quote is not true; you can see this if you examine what it is that kills game animals. You can switch them off right away with a central nervous system hit. You can kill them a bit slower by damaging enough tissue so they bleed out and then die. The bullet passing through the animal crushes the tissue in its direct path, and also propels bone and tissue outward from its path and this also adds to the wound channel. A bullet with more energy thus has more effectiveness, all else being equal.

I have always thought that the .300 Magnums were for shooting 200 gr bullets. Lord knows I shot enough 190 gr Sierra Match Kings at 600 and 1,000 yard targets to understand how heavy and good shape work, and 180s from my .308s at animals. Although I mostly shoot an '06 now with good 165 gr game bullets.

jim

I usually shoot two elk a year and they are generally cows. The .300 Wby was my go to elk rifle for the longest span of one gun use, about 10 years. In that time I "dumped" four elk on there nose. None of those shots were neck/head/spine shots, three were frontal shots @ 200 yards or less and the forth was a broad side heart shot @ 422 yards (go figure?). Three were shot with 200 A-frames one frontal with 180 A-frame. This was my bullet of choice until the price of components went thru the roof. I tabled the weatherby/A-frame combo that worked so well and built a 308 & 30-06 . Now I shoot cheaper Speer HC's and have tried nosler 180 PT seconds. On standard broad side shots I haven't seen any difference in lethality or "shock". I have not taken any frontal shots on any elk with the standard 30's for comparison, nor have I shot any 1000 lb. bulls. I just can't imagine there would be much difference between a 180 gr bullet crossing the top of a cow or bulls heart, or from a 308 win or 300 Wby. I don't feel handicapped by the standard cartridges lower velocity either as we need to know where our rifle/load hits(thru practice)no matter what the cartridge.I agree with Charlie.

There is no doubt the .300 Weaherby "hits harder," however you want to interpret that, and I believe Charlie would agree. I suspect he was saying that a .308 will kill big game just as dead as .300 Weatherby will, and for many people more effectively, since they will shoot it better.

We can talk about DRT's all we want, but I haven't noticed any big game anmals running off vast distances or being wounded when hit in the right place with a .308 out to 300 yards (or for that matter over 300 yards). The animals hit with a .300 magnum of whatever type very well might drop animals on average 11.2 or 17.6 yards sooner. I have no idea, and neither do most people, since we tend to remember the spectacular kills better.

I have seen a raghorn bull elk shot through the lower chest (taking off part of the heart) at right about 300 yards with a 200-grain Nosler Partition .300 Weatherby factory load walk off for 60 yards before even stopping, let alone dropping. Like any other example of one (whether a DRT or whatever) this doesn't prove anything--except that nothing is guaranteed any time we take a shot, or even make a good one.

I have also seen a pronghorn run--not walk or trot--75 yards after being shot with a .300 WSM and a 150-grain Ballistic Tip that made a football-sized hole in the buck's chest. I have seen the same thing with an 80-pound springbok that also had a huge hole in its chest from a 260-grain Ballistic Tip from a .375 H&H. In each case the range wasn't much more than 100 yards, if that. If a bigger hole makes a consistent difference, how do we explain these things?

Yeah, magnums tend to make a bigger hole, but not as much bigger as lot of people like to believe, especialy when the people haven't actually measured any holes, or paced off how far animals actually went after shooting. And even when magnumsmake a bigger hole, it still takes a little while for blood pressure to drop from heart/lung shots.

All I can say is that I have seen quite a few big game animals larger than deer shot with various cartridges--probably 95% at under 300 yards, because that is where we shoot most big game. The ones shot in the right place with .308's or 7x57's or .270's or whatever died pretty darn quickly, and that is about all we can count on, no matter what cartridge we're shooting.

JB,

Quit talking common sense...my personal experiences and prejudices always trump facts or anyone else's experiences, no matter how extensive they might be.

A great post by the way!