Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Interesting comment from Charlie Sisk

The advantage that magnums have is that their extra velocity reduces wind drift at long range -- but on game I have never been able to tell a difference in how fast they killed between the 308 and the 30-06 - nor between the 30-06 and the various 300's.

Your comment, which is similar to Sisk's, would mean that we would all be better off using a .308 and practicing shooting with it a lot. Practice is much easier than with a .300 Magnum because (a) the recoil is much less and (b) the ammo is much cheaper. The extra practice would sure help shot placement. And also barrel life is a lot better with a .308 if you shoot a lot.

Also, I don't think the wind drift difference is very important at any range inside of 300 yards.

I just returned from a moose hunt in Northern Ontario, an area that is larger than many African countries and most US states. My buddy and I saw no moose, but lots of tracks. They were in deep bogs and small swamps, of which there are thousands. There are also hundreds of clear cuts. The possibilities were endless. It was like a chess game. During 5 1/2 days we hunted thick timber, bogs, fringes of swamps and small lakes. But also favored clear cuts. We hunted from 8am to 7pm. Every day.

The closest we came was a fresh set of tracks that crossed the logging road we were on. They may have been seconds old to 30 minutes old as we were returning from early morning scouting and the tracks were not there 30 minutes earlier. The tracks were like the moose was on radar, headed in a straight line for the tip of a lake. Upon arrival, no moose in sight. He (she?) went through dense timber and brush at times nearly impossible for humans, let alone moose! I can assure you, neither of us were carrying 308s, or 300s!

With ranges anywhere from a few feet to over 600yds, a magnum was called for, and a big one at that!

On the way home (14 hour trip one way), at a truck stop, we ran into guys who had hunted another area. They saw four moose and got a shot on one of them at over 400 yds, with a 308 I believe - a wounding shot. They never found the bull and went home as empty handed as we did. I will never hunt moose under those conditions with any caliber less than a .338 magnum, and my preference would be at least a 375 Ruger or H&H. BTW, mine was a 458 Win. I think it was too intimidating for the moose and that's why we never found them. My friend was toting his 350 WSM.

I did have my 300 Win along for very long shots, if we knew we would be hunting clear cuts. The load was 190 Hor. BTs at 3065fps The 458 load was 350 TSXs at 2710 fps.

BTW, regarding the Swedish moose survey: the most effective cartridge used, by a significant amount, was the 358 Norma Magnum. Check it out. It surpassed the 375 H&H by quite a lot. My friend's 350 WSM is it's equivalent.

The idea when moose hunting is to call the moose over to a winch cable length away.

I sometimes use a 338WM or a 308Norma moose hunting,but it's mostly a 30-06.

I got a kick out a couple of fellow hunters' remarks "That's why I use a 300WM" .We were hunting where a hunter week before got tag-teamed by a couple of grizzly boars.The other one was when we were looking across a swamp.Factory 300WM 180, is 2900 isn't it? well my handloaded 30-06 is 2750.That's less than 2" difference at 400yards

I also believe that I'm in full (near full) agreement with Charlie, Phil, JB, et al. This was something that came up in another thread a couple of weeks back in regards to adding a 300 WSM to a hunter's cabinet when he already had an '06 and another of the .308 ilk. I suggested a .338 or .375 if he really wanted to add to his line of weapons (as I recall moose and grizzly hunting was mentioned), otherwise the 30-06 with the right loads would work just fine.

In my opinion, when shooting inside of 250 yards or so, the difference between a .308 Win/30-06 or 30-06/.300 Wby Mag is very insignificant. Shot placement and bullet weight / bullet construction which matches both the game species and cartridge is far more paramount.

Bill

I agree with Phil 110%

I have owned a 300 Weatherby and I presently own 3 each 300 Winchesters and a couple of 300 RUM's. I have had as many DRT kills with a 30-06 on ELK as I have with any other caliber. I just returned from New Mexico on a public land Elk hunt with my 338 Lapua loaded with 300 grain bullet at 2800 FPS I made a one shot kill but not a DRT despite all 4750 FPE at about 150 yard impact. FPE is not an efficient way to measure lethality IMHO

That's moose for you!

On the Kenai, my partner tracked a moose and from some high ground watched it cross a bog ("casually") and come out the other side in a very few minutes.

After spending a significant portion of an hour getting only half-way across that bog, my partner aborted the stalk and came back out of the bog.

I had the same kind of experience with a herd of bighorns. I watched them side-hill across a cliff, from one drainage to the next, in less than a minute. I side-hilled across that cliff in something like an hour, with nothing to show for it but dirt under my lower lip � and went back the long way around.

Sometimes, there's just no way that you can get closer to even undisturbed game. Neither Bob's moose nor my bighorns knew that we were there.

fwiw & imho,
I will only say this... Every hunter can lose game despite his best efforts. I also want to be the last person to seperate hunters into good/bad or better/worse and hence open the antigunners Pandora's Box.

That said we have an abundance of whitetail deer on our properties and have this year, more than any before, opened up the land to the public on a per person basis. There have been four long time bow hunters and all of them have something in common. Buzzards. As in buzzards circling for several days after they leave and placed that "perfect shot" but lost the deer. One, a close friend, shot at dusk and tracked until 2 AM with the help of others, deer dogs, and blood lights. He lost another on Virginia's Eastern Shore two weeks before...

I had, up until this experience, one type of hunter I would not let hunt my property under any circumstances and they were dog hunters. This distaste came from finding a Buck Dear exhausted on the side of the road more than a few years ago with Dear Dogs tearing at the animal while it was too tired to run and no "hunters" in sight. I was not about to watch the dogs tear an alert animal to pieces while it watched. I returned to the truck brought a 1911 back and dispatched the animal. A humane kill is part of hunting ethics. May have ruined the dogs and quite honestly I don't care. The Animal deserves to be dispatched as efficiently as possible. Whether that be a .308 Winchester placed perfectly at 200 yards or a .338 Lapua at 600 yards. If the Hunter is capable of the shot and putting the animal down as quickly as possible he has my respect and permission to hunt. Those who have Deer Hounds, and after this year a Bow, need not apply...fwiw & imho.

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

downwind,

The factory MV for the 300 WM is a nominal 2960fps, and the high energy loads from Hornady and Federal is 3100 fps, and since you cite handloads for your 30-06, my handloads for the 300WM with 180s is normally 3160 fps (Nosler Manual -easy to duplicate). That's 300fps faster than your load, or 150 yards.

As to calling them within the range you describe, in the area we hunted that rarely works since the rut is well past it's prime. Nevertheless, it was tried, believe me. I was describing moose hunting 1400 klms from my home, and time was of the essence. We hunted hard 10 to 11 hrs per day. It's not possible for me to just walk out my back door and hunt moose. I can go an hour from home and find them but tags for adult moose in south-central Ontario are near impossible to get unless you belong to a hunting party of about 12. In Northern Ontario (WMU 15B)I could get a bull tag every other year. But that's a long way to go for moose, and costly. I just can't do that every second year.

That's the reason I tote "moose guns" and not "deer" guns.

Regardless of the game or the cartridge, most guys shouldn't even attempt anything over 300 yds. I've had quite a few guys fire at targets on my 300 meter range and miss the two by four foot target board. Never mind the piece of printer paper they were supposed to hit.
For those who are capable and who understand their limitations, they can successfully shoot at longer ranges with the help of a good rangefinder. They would likely do as well with a 308 as anything else.
The really neat thing about the 308 is that it can truly be all things if such is desired. Want a lightweight hunting rifle to carry for sheep? It's pretty easy to make a 6 1/2 pound 308 that will carry well, shoot well, and have enough power should the unwelcome grizzly make his appearance (happens here).
How about a long range target rifle? It's no problem to build a sub 1/2 moa 308 which will turn in good scores as a fullbore rifle or in "F" class.
Varmints? a well built 8 pound 308 will be a fine varmint rifle for coyotes with 155 Palma bullets. 125 grain bullets at 3100 fps reach out surprisingly well on tunnel dwelling rodents.
A 308 can even come very close to being competitive in short range BR if the shooter can handle it.
I think the 308 is one of the most versatile yet under-appreciated rounds out there.
I recently built a semi- heavy 308 one a pre-64 action for a fellow. Nothing special; it was just a #5 contoured chromoly barrel on an old featherweight action, trued as best I could. Bedded in a kind of pretty peice of Bastogne, it produced sub 1/2 inch groups so reliably the customer is practically bored with it.
I think Charlie Sisk is right! GD

If you get a change to read Roy Weatherby's 1948 journals where he hunted Africa and took a .308, .30/06 and the .300 Weatherby to compare, you could bruise your ego if you are not flexible or truth oriented.

Roy's notes indicate similar results if my memory is correct.


The simple fact is the .308 is a relatively easy shooting cartridge so bullet placement is more often very good. couple that with bullets made for the .30/06 and they become a tad better or lean more towards a premium performers in the .308 so a more consistent and reliable result occurs.

I have never known a .308 user to leave the cartridge nor slander it in any way. It always is an imminently sensible choice for a light mountain rifle.

JW

I have used a 30-06 quite a lot in my life and I have never felt that a 300 killed any better

There are guys I know that shoot magnums that will tout the superiority of the magnums over 308's, 30-06's, etc., despite all evidence to the contrary. They seem to have the ability to accept only evidence that supports their belief and reject whatever refutes their belief. They seem to see what they want to see.

A good friend of mine goes on about his 300UM when it DRT's a caribou but manages to forget the previous caribou that took 3 rounds to kill (all due to shot placement).

Since I've know him he's shot three bears with the UM and lost two. In the same time, I've shot six with a 308 or 30-06 and never lost one. Yet he still goes on about how much better the UM kills...?

Another guy I know talks about how much better his 300UM kills and how flat it shoots compared to (even) the 300WM. Yet when I ask him about the load he's using, I find he's loading the UM to 300WM levels...

If I point any of this out, they seem to be offended by the facts and dismiss them out of hand. It reminds me of talking to religous fanatics.

It seems that most of the objections and arguments regarding the 300 magnums vs the standard cartridges center on shot placement and the ability of the shooter as opposed to focusing on the issues regarding which are inherently better "killers".

This is probably as it should be but has nothing whatever to do with the issue;what can be refered to as a "red herring".In comparing any cartridge/bullet combo we have to assume all things are equal,including bullet placement,construction,etc. While it's difficult to have everything the same for each shot,we can draw some conclusions.

We can conclude, for example, that a 308 has enough raw "power"(whatever that means) to kill effectively at 300 yards;we can also conclude that a 300 Weatherby has the same ability.Using the same bullets,at some point in its' ballistic life(distance from muzzle),a 300 Weatherby "becomes" a 308;this just happens farther away,while it happens "at the muzzle" of a 308.

Ditto a 22-250 and a 22 rimfire.We know,intuitively, unless we are dolts,that a 50 gr bullet from a 22-250 blows large holes in woodchucks ,and disintegrates PD's,while the little 22 rimfire just sort of kills them,and not always all that quickly.How does this happen?Through higher velocity,of course.This logic seems to be lost, or ignored, in these conversations about standard and magnum cartridges,as if the extra 200-400 fps generated by the larger cases have no significance whatsoever.This is an easy trap to fall into because while ballistics change,game animals do not,and are relatively "easy" to kill with about anything we have available that can be called a big game cartridge.So Sisk's statement is right, as far as it goes.

But are you going to catch me using a 308 on a long-planned and expensive(in time or money)elk hunt?No.If I have to deal with a long shot(or short)at a bull I have waited a long time to shoot,and I have issues regarding distance, wind terrain, etc. to deal with,do I want a 300 Weatherby or a 308 in my hands? If I am using a tough premium bullet and want to be SURE it expands adequately at long distance,am I more likely to use a 308 or a 300 Weatherby? To me, it's an easy answer.With equally accurate rifles, I am just as likely to hit where I want with a 300 Weatherby as a 308.The 308 won't even make it to the airport.

Sisk may be right,but it's only half of the question,so you can't give a complete answer.When,exactly, was the last time you knew at what distance you were going to shoot your elk?

The longest shot I've made on game was with a .308. 376 yards. Bedded mulie buck. 165 partition meets spine at the base of the neck. DRT.

A lot of guys like the idea of the extra MPBR and less wind drift that comes with more velocity, but few utilize it in my experience. Practice putting holes in stuff at whatever range you plan to shoot to and you will have dead critters, regardless of your cartridge selection. Drop is easy, wind less so. I'm not much for MPBR. I'll take ranging and dialing or ranging and dotz any day.

As far as bigger cases go, I think they're great...for launching bigger bullets. My next project will be SM Sako re-barreled to 35 WSM. But then all I want to do is launch fat, heavy bullets at the same 2700 FPS my .308 launches 165's at.

In the end it's really simple.



But there will always be folks who think they need a .300 ultra or Winny or Weatherby or a 7mm of whatever magnum stripe to kill midwestern whitetails.

To each his own. I agree with Charlie.

AussieGunWriter, Did Roy W really write that in 1948? Seems the 308Win was spawned later than that. Did you mean 1958?
No matter when he wrote about it I'll bet he had only good to say of it.

Bob,

I agree with you. This is exactly why I've killed far more large species of game with a 300 Win, 300 Wby, 338 Win or 375 than I have with a 308 Win or 30-06. I simply choose to use a weapon that I know will do what it takes in most all situations/all probable ranges. So, while I also agree that there is little difference between an '06 and a 300 mag at closer ranges; I feel that a hunter could be well-served by shooting the more powerful weapon --- if the hunter can shoot it well and is generally comfortable with it.

Bill

Bill:We are on the same page. I firmly believe in bullet placement,and that horse power does not make up for the right bullet in the right place.That said,a 300 Weatherby starts a 200 gr bullet over 3000 fps, faster than a 308 can muster with a 150. No one is going to convince me they are equal at any distance,particularly at the longish distances sometimes encountered in some western elk and other big game hunting.
There may not be much difference between the cartridges on Texas or mid-western whitetails,inside 300 yards,but as a general-pupose big game rifle, the 308 simply cannot sit in the same company as a 300 Weatherby.
These differences of opinion on magnum cartridges always follow a similar pattern; many of the small cartridge advocates automatically assume that:

a)all 300 magnum shooters can't shoot(BS);
b)Magnum advocates try to make up for lousy bullet placement with horsepower(more BS)
c)The higher velocity and heavier bullets from the magnum case make no difference(more and more BS)
d)believes that the extra bullet weight and velocity of the magnum case contribute nothing to the killing equation(equal dose of BS)
e)308's are more accurate than 300 magnums cause you can shoot tighter groups with them(when was the last time you got to shoot a "group" on a big game animal?)
f) 300 magnum shooters can't hunt and try to make up for hunting inadequacies by using a more powerful cartridge.(This one REALLY cracks me up).

There is this "creeping",underlying snob-mentality running through all this that a guy somehow occupies a higher moral ground if he uses a smaller cartridge in lieu of a bigger one,even where the bigger one is clearly superior.

I've seen elk take hits from 30/06's and 300 Weatherby's/Winchesters at over 300 yards;some shots approaching 500.Nobody is going to convince me there is no difference...

I've been hanging around experienced big game hunters since I was in my late teens.Some of these guys have shot more big game than many on here have even seen.Until I got on the Campfire, I never heard ONE of them say that a 308 is remotely equal to a 300 Weatherby as a general purpose big game cartridge.Some are high-power competitors who shoot at Perry and Quantico every year;when they travel west to hunt, to a man, they are 300 magnum shooters.I wonder why?

The little "winking devil" in Sisk's statment is "out to 300 yards".Well, what happens at 301?That's why statements like this make me laugh.....

I don't use 300's as much anymore as I used to,prefering a 270 or 7 mag of some type most of the time,and both work just fine,as I'm sure the 308 does; but I don't ever kid myself that they are the equal of a 300 magnum as a general purpose, all-round big game cartridge.The higher velocity and heavier bullets fired from the magnum case DO matter.If they kick too much for you to manage,don't use them;but don't make up a lot of nonsense to justify the choice.

Once one has enough, more does not necessarily kill faster

The damage to this Zebra's heart is from a 338 Federal shooting a 210 grain TSX. Distance about 100 yards



There is no way IMHO that a 340 Wea. or a 338 Rum or a 458 Lott would have killed any faster, since the heart is allready destroyed