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Accecpting Christ is the only way to get to God.

No human can abide by the Laws God Gave Moses. God took human form in Christ, lived a perfect life, and died on the cross to pay the dept we each owe for our sins. To deny God's plan, the only way he gave us, keeps us seprate from God.

Maybe some "believe" in Christ out of fear of hell, but that was not the case for me. I did not believe there was a place like hell before I knew Jesus Christ as savior.

I don't think I am trying to "impose" Christianity on you. I am just saying; why not read the Bible yourself, then decide?

You see, I beleive the danger lies in taking someone else's word for what God's will is. In the end, God will hold each of us accountable for our decisions. What makes you think that God will accecpt you into his presence because he is keeping a "talley" of your good deeds? God isn't the Boy Scouts. Good deads alone won't do it. What do you base that line of thought on? The world says "good boys and girls go to heaven, bad boys and girls go to hell. The Bible does not say that.


Listen, I'm a Christian not an Amway sales man. I don't get into heaven by the number of souls I convert or any good deads I might do. I am not trying to recruit you. If you don't want to beleive God's word thats between you and God. It's no skin off my nose.

But before I decided what to beleive or not believe the Bible says, I think I would at least read it for myself.

What do you fear about reading the Bible and deciding for your own self what to think about it?

While I admit that I have not read the Bible cover to cover (how many Christians actually have), I have lived my entire life among Christians and gone to enough church services to have already formed my opinions on God.



I am 99.9% sure he doesn't exist. However, if he does, who says he is the Christian God? I would like to think that if there is a supreme being, he/she would take into account what one did during their life on earth rather than what religion I chose to believe in. That does give me some comfort, just as living your life by the Bible gives you comfort.



Did you ever think that God might have changed his mind about some things since the Bible was written. Maybe Satan has done things in the last 2000 years that would require God to change his plan of attack? Of course I already know what your opinion will be in response to that.



Also, don't you see something wrong with someone that has raped, killed, stolen and molested during their time on earth being accepted into heaven just because they accepted Christ while on death row and those that have been productive, law abiding citizens but never "saw the light" might burn in hell for all eternity?



I'm not trying to Poo Poo on Christianity because my family are Christians and I believe there is a great deal of good things to come out of the religion. However, living in Virginia I see a bunch of the big name bible thumpers that use the "word of God" to gain fame and fortune off of the hard earned pennies of their followers. They also use their money and power to push a political agenda that often is hurtful to particular groups of people (basically most non Christians). They are trashing the public school system to pave the way for religious private schools. I won't even go into the hate and intolerance they promote for people that don't subscribe to the same "morals" they claim to have.



I'm sure there are a ton of people that feel the same way about the militant bible thumpers not flaunting their Godness just as much as much as many people do not like homosexuals to flaunt their gayness. I really don't like to see/hear either but I respect their rights as Americans to do so.



I'm not referring to anyone on this board, because this is a discussion and differing opinions are being solicited. I hope there are no hard feelings for those that disagree with my thoughts.

No hard feelings from me.



Then I sumit that you may have formed your opinions on false information. If the "Christians" you know and attend chruch with don't read the Bible why would you believe a word they say? Do you assume that they know more than you? Do you just assume they are telling you the truth? Do you blindly trust a man who calls himself a "man of god" and just assume he knows more about God than you can understand? Man, that's a lot of trust and faith to place in the wrong hands. Even if they say they have read the Bible how do you know they are not lying to you? How do you know if you don't read it yourself?

I also sumit that God does not care one wit what our opinions of him are. God formed man from clay, we can't form him to fit our own image of what we would like a god to be.



God is not what "we would like to think he is". He has told us that we are born into sin. He tells us that no one gets into heaven by his own good works, least any should boast. He lays out his plans for us and who he is for all to know.

If you choose to believe in a "feel good about myself" religion and worship a god of your own making or live a lie attending church when you truly beleive God does not exist that is your right. I respect your freedom to do that.

There are many good people who are doing just that. I like good people, I have nothing aginst them. In fact I enjoy their company. But there are a lot of good people who are lost to God because "they have eyes, but do not see". In my words; they have eyes but will not read the Bible.

It just seams to me that you have a lot of questions and may not be 100% sure you are correct in your beliefs. I'm not trying to tell you what you should believe. The answers to all your questions are in God's word. Why not get a translation of the Bible that's easy for you to read and just read it?

I don't understand people who make judgments and form opinions about something they don't know. It's like you have written a book review on a book you haven't read.

What is it that keeps you from reading the Bible?

No hard feelings here. I submit that you have not learned enough about Christiantiy to be able to reject it. Remember, humans are fallible, we make mistakes. The failings you see on TV, in the newspapers, and even in the pews are human flaws. It is a mistake to impute these human flaws, to The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

I ask you to find a church that you like, join it, and spendsome time learning about the the Word of God. A Catholic Church is a good place to do so because it offers a fairly thorough reading of the Bible over a 3 year period.

A Catholic Newman Center (usually found at College Campuses) is a good place for people with questions. Because of its location near a college, that church will be more comfortable dealing with intellectually challenging questions.

Whatever you do, I suggest that you don't throw the Baby out with the Bathwater. The Bible has direct answers to the questions that you have posed. I submit that you will be pleased with mot of the answers that have been given to us.

All my best,

BMT

I have not read the Bible from cover to cover but I have read portions of it and been sermonized on it. I am not "writing a book review" and have been quite open about my beliefs and have no reason to fear the Bible or what is in it. I will most likely read it some day but honestly there are a great many things that are more important to me right now. I trust you are giving me an accurate and honest interpretations of portions of what is in the Bible and you are not telling me anything I haven't heard before, that is enlightening me or anything I agree with.

You are avoiding many of the questions I have asked or points I have made by turning this into a debate of whether I am a Bible scholar or not. You have not been able to give me any answers about homosexuality that logically make sense except that you read in the Bible it is wrong. Also, you seem to think one is only gay if they commit homosexual acts. I contend that men fanticizing about men makes them homosexual whether they act on it or not. In your eyes, is everyone undecided until they lose their virginity or are they considered straight until they commit a homosexual sex act? I knew from a very early age that I liked women and never had to make a choice about my sexuality because it is accepted that men and women are together. I just try to cut the people some slack that grow up physically attracted to the same sex but are forced to live a lie because society condems them as evil and discriminates against them.

I seriously doubt you have studied other religions or sciences which will contradict many of the things you believe are the word of God. You might want to ask yourself many of the same questions you directed towards me. Why do you trust that what you have read in the Bible is the only or absolute truth? You have no way to prove that the words are indeed the word of God just as I cannot prove they aren't.

I base my opinions on things from lifetime experiences, studies and asking questions. You seem to have all you answers wrapped up in a book that was written by an uknown author(s) over 2000 years ago and is believed to be the words of God.

Why can't you just accept that I share many of the same morals with Christians, yet I do not believe in life after death or a supreme being? Asking me to read the Bible is like me asking you to read a Scientology book.

BMT,



That is a very good parabole and teaches a very valuable lesson regarding not being jealous of other's good fortune. Nothing wrong with that and didn't need the Bible to tell me jealousy is not a good thing.



However, using the same parabole to try to get me to understand or have sympathy for people that have murdered, terrorized, raped women or molested children will not happen. This a positive for an athiest. I have no reason to feel any remorse or sympathy for people that choose to commit horrible acts against others. I have no problem with God forgiving these people but don't ask me to turn the other cheek (like some do because of religious beliefs) either because these types of people living among us, they are my problem and need to be dealt with. People can interpret the Bible in many different ways regarding punishment of these types but common sense sometimes seems to "get thrown out with the bath water".



I encourage you to step outside of the Christian life you currently live. Think about things that are important in your life, think about threats and dangers to your way of life and think about what your life might be like if you were born into a non-Christian lifestyle. Maybe possibly consider, that the Bible was written to help establish order and morals among people in a time when there were very few and 1600 years before people realized the world wasn't flat. Maybe study a few other religions, Taoist philosphies or pagan cultures. Sciences and world History is also very educational when it comes to forming opinions as well. Think about what truly makes sense, deep down inside your heart and ask yourself if all of your current beliefs are absolutely 100% correct.

I am not an expert on the Bible, Although I have read it several times. Just reading it is not all that is crack up to be. It requires study and prayer to gain understanding.
I do know that the only constant in all of creation is God, He is the same today as he has always been. If you think he changes with the times, You are wrong or you have him mixed up with some pollitician. I will not add to this topic again. But will be praying for all of us.
God Bless
Hooker

Dead On.

BMT

Imposing Christianity on others is EXACTLY what you are trying to do when you legislate Christian morals.

If this is just any other sin that you disagree with, why aren't you out there fighting against all of the common law marriages between men and women too? Seems kind of inconsistent that you can tolerate one sin, but not the other.

This country was founded on FREEDOM. To practice (or not practice, as it may be) religious beliefs of your choice. If you are so quick to take away another's freedom to behave in a manner that does not even involve you, don't act shocked when others come after you for some of your behaviors.

Before I finish, let me reiterate. I am a religious person. I do believe that homosexual relationships are against God's will. But I also know that there is more to the story than a bunch of guys deciding they like boys better than girls.

Laugh about the "gay gene" all you want. I don't think there is evidence one way or the other that it exists. I DO know enough to not rule it's possibility out entirely. FWIW - there are "disorders" that predispose people to have less control over urges, like stealing (huh, there may be a "clepto gene" after all?). Ever seen research on twins separated at birth? Often end up in the same career field, marrying similar people, same number of kids, like the same foods, same taste in music, etc. Don't tell me those preferences aren't genetic - what else could they be?

Maybe the fact that the world isn't as black and white as we'd like it to be is part of the reason Christ urged us to "judge not".

I have done so . . . .

I was not born a Catholic nor Baptized as a Child.

I have a degree in Human Biomechanics from UC Davis and a Law Degree from University of Oregon. I have studied Anthropolgy, Anatomy, Genetics, Biochemistry and Physics.

I have studied the development of law in society, the division between Law (the King's Courts) and Equity (the Church's Courts) in England, over the past 500 years.

I have read about the disctinctions between Judeo, Christian, and Islamic religions as Revealed Religions and Budist and Hindu religions as Observed Religions.

The journey toward God is not simple. Everyone has doubts and fears. I have mine, you have yours.

Ask yourself, how much Faith, true, blind Faith, do I place in sciences that also leave questions unanswered? Why would unanswered questions of Science be acceptable for me to build my life around when I refuse the same courtesy to Christianity?

In one post, I recall you stated that you were 99.9% sure that there was no God. In the most recent one you state that you are an Atheist. I submit that you are not an Atheist, as long as there is a 0.1% chance that you still believe in God.

I also sense that you have some anger that is being directed toward God. It is not for me to condemn you for that. I have been angry with God more than once. Its normal. We are human.

That being said, I encourage to continue your journey toward God. Only those who consciously turn away are lost. Those with questions who seek answers with open hearts as well as open minds shall not be disappointed with their Maker.

All my best,

BMT

I thought I'd answered that question. Does thinking about taking something that does not belong to you make you a thief?
Does thinking "I could just kill that guy" make you a murderer? Or do you cross the line when you commit the deed? You know the answer to that.

You have every right to what ever opinions you choose. I never said otherwise. I fully realiaze that you share some moral values with Christians. You said that.

I have read Scientology books. I have been to a Church of Christian Scientists. I do not believe what they teach is the truth. I'm not trying to convince you to change your beliefs here. I just don't understand how one can form opinions about The Bible (or anything else) when they have not read it.

I now understand that you are not interested in reading it.

You asked how I know the Bible is the truth? Because I have read it several times. I've read other books too. I know the truth when I read it. I recognize BS when I read that. And I think you would too. It isn't rocket science. It's plain and simple and anyone can understand it. If they take the time to sit down and read it.

This has become a little too much like my dog when he chases his own tail. Run in circles if you want, but I choose not to follow that path.

No hard feelings intended, but I've said my peace on the matter.

I don't think I ever said I tolerate common law marriages. That is not a marriage in the eyes of God. It's living in sin.

I don't mind if you want to disagree with me. But please don't put words into my mouth.

I've about said my piece too, but I just wanted to respond to two more things.



How can I have anger towards something that I do not believe exists?



You are comparing someone living their life in a manner that does not harm others but differs from yours and your morals to....................... people that choose to commit crimes against others. It's not a very good comparison in my opinion.

I know I replied to your post (about forcing Christianity on others), but I didn't necessarily mean this question solely for you. I guess what I'm saying is that every state has common law marriage laws that give couples the same rights as if they had been married. If folks are so concerned about the behavior or sin (and not necessarily which sin that is), then why aren't they trying to get those common law marriage laws done away with? A lot of gays simply want the same rights these unmarried couples have. And what is the difference between someone who fornicates with a person of the same gender versus someone who fornicates with a person of the opposite gender? Aren't they both sins? Why do "Christians" treat them any differently?

Sometimes it just feels like people have pet sins they rant against. Homosexuality is one of the favorites because nearly all Christianity can agree on it.

The church I attend has actually donated funds toward the legal battle against same sex marriages. And truth be told, I tend to support not legalizing those unions. Maybe more than anything it feels to me like gays are an easy target here, and there were more than a few that were willing to pile on while the rest stood around to get an occasional kick in.

Due to my profession and schooling I have had discussions with more than one gay person, and have also seen a lot of research regarding gays. I think it is very easy to say "it's wrong, they chose it, they should just change" when talking about someone else. Many glibly state that these guys should just "decide" that from now on they will be attracted to girls. For many of the gays I've met, that would just as easy as asking the guys here to start being attracted to men. Easy to say, much tougher to practice.

THAT is why I refuse to judge them. Many of those who openly flaunt their behavior do so in direct reaction to a society who tells them the feelings they didn't chose and don't want are evil. They've decided if no one else accepts them, they'll accept themselves. And they'll make an issue of things to gain some level of acceptance. I feel for them, I really do. But I also agree that the behaviors of some make it difficult to empathize with the group as a whole and what they face.

Just for the sake of argueing a point Let's talk about alcoholism. I can accecpt that medical science has found a predisposition for that in some people.

I do not accecpt the idea of a "gay gene" or a "clepto gene".

We are all born with a "sin gene" according to the Bible.

So assuming that, a person can be an alcoholic even though he has never taken a drink? Even if I could agree with that statement does that make the person a drunk?

I think not.

Drunkeness is a sin. Drinking is not. If I have a glass of wine did I sin? According to the Bible, no.

If an alcoholic has a glass of wine, and that leads to another, and another, until he gets drunk he has sinned.

Now the Bible makes no distinction like that concerning homosexual acts. It is clearly a sin. Does that mean a man who has an ocasional un-clean thought about another man is a homosexual? I don't know and I really don't care to know. It does not matter.

If he acts on those thoughts and commits the act in the privacy of his home he has now commited the sin. When he displays his homosexuality in a public way and expects society to sancantion that, he is now infringing on the morals and values of that society. He has declared his private business to be public business. At that point he is an unrepentent sinner and it becomes everyone's concern.

If, and I do mean IF a person has a predisposition towards homosexual feelings that is no different than any other temptation. He should avoid it like an alcoholic avoids drinking. We all have temptations we strugle with. We all sin. But we are to repent, not flaunt our sinning in public.

Tolerating all sorts of sin and evil leads a people or a society to ruin. If we turn a blind eye to open, blatent, sin and sanction those things that are ofensive to God we are rushing the demise of our society. For Godly men to remain quiet and tolerate evil without saying "that's wrong" is all that is necessary for evil to win.

I realize that the only people who share my views on this will be those who share my views concerning the Bible being the word of God. That's something I can accecpt. It puts me in good company.
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The honest answer is because the Bible says homosexual fornication is more offensive to God.

[/quote]

The honest answer is because the Bible says homosexual fornication is more offensive to God. [/quote]


PDS,

Where exactly is that verse in the bible?

Genesis 19

Oh, yeah, I read that one. Where Lot tries to protect 2 angels by trading his virgin daughters to a mob instead of them. And then, both daughters wind up screwing their Daddy so they can get pregnant. Good lesson, incest is OK, but don't rape foreigners.

Well, I see its gotten ugly. I've seen a few traits on this thread that I think I detest the most: being offensive. Not in a manner of treating those of opposing viewpoint, although that can be offensive, too, but in the substance of what is being said about the beliefs of others. I don't know what an atheist holds dear, maybe nothing, but the devoutly religious really don't appreciated their beliefs to be made fun of. Extremely poor taste.

Believe me I see it. I'm a Catholic. The arrogance of protestants is astounding. I don't know what they have to be arrogant about. They can't discuss anything religious without attacking or insulting something Catholic. You'd think they could just go along their merry protestant way and shake their heads at the Catholics. But nooooo. Setting themselves apart from Catholicism seems to be a defining thing, and not a necessarily pretty one at that. Lord knows protestants are abundantly vulnerable to the same teatment, but Catholics don't seem to bother. This is the type of behavior that atheists relish. Am I wrong?

Anyway, I don't like to see levity directed at things or ideas I hold sacred, but don't worry, one doesn't need to go into hiding.

Regards, sse