Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Supreme Court Okays Arrest For Not Wearing Seatbelt!

Seatbelts? Helmets? Tobacco? I believe it isn't the insurance companys-it's the federal government. Why do they care about your life? IF you are DEAD, you can't pay TAXES!

<P>10pointer, nothing in my posts suggest I have an axe to grind with cops. In fact, I have the utmost of respect for the rule of law. The Constitution and Bill of Rights is the highest law of the land. I wish you had the same respect for the rule of law.<P>Don't worry, I won't choke on my flute. This whole thing is a no-brainer. Citizens of this republic cannot be arrested for not wearing seatbelts, if they are it's a usurpation of power not enumerated and specifically prohibited. If the lower courts failed to secure this woman's rights, the Supreme Court should have.

We are slowly loosing it, regardless of all the words spoken, we are loosing freedom every day. Population is one cause, metroplex areas are are another, politics from most of our elected officials is the main cause. High density areas of the country require different kind of laws for people to live in such close proximity with each other, and these laws are passed out to the rural areas where many are considered an infringement to our way of life. I resent any government telling me how to live or what to wear, there will be deaths and injurys regardless of any laws for a percent of the population. How I take care of my life or body I feel is my personal business. Our leaders are trying to tell everyone in the world how to live, you see it in the news every day, where will it end? Big brother is watching. Yes, we need rules to live by to a point. Who has the right to tell two consenting adults what they can do and can't do in their bedroom? Why are you fined because your grass is 10" tall? Two Dallas detectives were sent out and arrested an 80 year old woman because her grass was too tall, her penson was so small she could not have it cut. I saw an elderly man put in a nursing home and his house buldosed because it needed painting and his back yard was cluttered. His memories and posesions destroyed after paying taxes and helping to build Dallas all his life, the new generation took over and destroyed the end of his life. Our government says go fight for me on a whim, but denies an 18 year old the right to buy a beer or a handgun. Yes, I'm bitter the way our leaders have been running our country. Someone tell me the good and cheer me up. No, I don't want to go anywhere else, I want my country, that I fought for back, and that doesn't mean more laws or control over private lives for me, you, or our kids. -- no

i find myself agreeing with If It Flies It Dies in his or her first post this whole thing is completely ridiculous this country is really going to hell.

I was in law enforcement for 26 years and the atmosphere changed dramatically over that<BR>period of time. When I was a kid the beat cop in my home town was our defender and<BR>friend and we treated him with respect, not out of fear. He, as I did when I started had latitude to use common sense in dealing with the job. Yes some abused it but we are human also. The onset of Miranda changed the whole concept and got "big government" involved where it did not belong. When the government starts to mandate how you live it has become too intrusive, law enforcement was not intended to run your life, it was intended to keep the peace and provide a modicum of safety from predators. Yes it has gotten very dangerous to just stop a car for a traffic infraction but I cannot agree with arbitrarily cuffin' & stuffin' for minor infractions, common sense must be used. Or we will become an overly intrusive society. I will not presume to second guess this officer as I was not there, but on the face<BR>of what I have heard here and on the news it seems to be a bit beyond the pale. <BR>However there may well be factors we are not aware of, that being so the whole story should be told. Finally I just have to say that our government needs to back out of our private lives and let "the people" be responsible for them selves or pay their own consequences. Well enough ramblings and I do offer my apologies if I have offended or confused anyone with them.<P>------------------<BR><B>T LEE</B><BR>Remember: There is no such thing as OVERKILL. Just a generous margin of SAFETY! <P><B>APATHY.....Freedoms greatest enemy!</B><p>[This message has been edited by T LEE (edited April 27, 2001).]

E4E got to the root of the whole problem. It all boils down to money, and who is going to make it. Insurance Companies have got a racket, and have the money to expand the racket. They get these congressmen to pass laws, and the cops enforce them. I don't mean to bash our officers, so I apoligize in advance, but these cops are out busting Joe Public for traffic violations and other infractions that are petty, while rapist, murderers, drug dealers and other scum walk around without care.I get mad when I hear someone say we need more cops. WE NEED more cops busting bad guys! Don't get me wrong, I got alot of respect for our police. They are in constent danger when making a traffic stop. Who knows what the guy might have in his car. But still, traffic stops are aimed at getting revenue for the state. Thats why we have more cops on traffic enforcment than out chasing bandits. The lawmakers aren't worried a bit about public safety, they're worried about money. <BR>7mmbuster<BR>Trust in God and Fear Nothing <BR>

<BR> OK, now your blubbering that I dont "have the same respect for the rule of Law" just because I have an open mind on what I read and am not a good sheep and go along with the herd. Now I know you have an axe to grind. Let me remind you MeHunt, you are a total stranger making that assertion.<P> Now a few of you should go back and actually read what I said. When did I advocate handcuffing a mother in front of her kids for a minor traffic offense? If, in fact, that is what happened. I saw the article in the paper yesterday, and the pic, and it showed just the most innocent mommie and kids ive ever seen, right away Im suspicious.<P> Then again, unlike any of you, ive been in Law Enforcement for 20 years and ive about seen everything. Ive seen good cop's get railroaded and hanged by the media, "guilty until proven guilty".And ive seen bad ones protected by these Poloticians.<P> Ive had to endure about every kind of insult and be-littlement you can imagine. Ive had to work in war zones with nothing less then a 6-gun & 38spl +p LHP's because society would be "insulted" if I carried a weapon with the capability to actually defend myself.<P> Gee, do you think I know how the world REALLY works? We dont have a "free press" here in America. Its controlled by a bunch of leftist,liberal,money-grabbing, anti-authority bunch of ex-60's rejects. Your not going to sell those half page ad's by printing storie's of cop's helping little kids get their cat out of a tree. But boy! anything to do with allegation's of misconduct ? <P> And so many people treat a story like that as Gospel. Hey if Ruby Ridge happened then it must be true right ? It has always saddened me that people can be so easily led and manipulated.<P> I dont usally get involved in the "Police Discussion's", so if I dont respond anymore dont be surprised. I get tired of the attitudes and many guy's , like Mehunt, act like they know what they are talking about, but in reality, dont know squat. How can you have a balanced,meaningful discussion with someone like that?<P> Reading a paper,being able to shoot, and never missing a episode of "Cop's" doesnt make you an expert on Law Enforcement procedure's and the constitutionality of the Law's on the book's.<P> When the Supreme court overturn's State Law's and ban's the right of the individual citizen to own firearm's we'll see how big a fan of Federalism you are then. <P> BTW I really think that the handle "If it flie's it die's" isn't helping the image of Hunting to the public. It really carries negative connotation's for our sport.<P> Nothing personal you understand. I dont know you and wouldnt act like I did by making by making indirect comments about your character, or ,the character of other's who share your profession. I just think it's bad form thats all..........10

<BR>10point, I'll say again, I have no axe to grind with cops. I respect them and the rule of law. <P>I'm 38 years old, never been arrested, and have no record other than a couple minor traffic violations (speeding) years ago. I've served proudly in our nation's armed forces for over 10 years, 5 of which as an US Army Recruiter. I've taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Have you?<P>I assure you, I have no axe to grind. For you to suggest so is curious. Your "seen it all" attitude is arrogant, just the type that makes this type of power dangerous, unconstitutional, and tyrannical. <P>An LEO on another forum, Cuts from HuntingBBS, has the direct opposite view about this issue. He sees it for what it is.<P>You may have forgotten, our government was instituted to secure our liberties. The facts surrounding this event are not complex. This woman was arrested for not wearing a seatbelt. That is wrong. <P>I may have not seen it all, but I can see simple things for what they are.

Well, at least part of your post I agree with, "Hey if Ruby Ridge happened then it must be true right ?" Yep, unassailable logic. <P>As for some of the rest....<P>"When the Supreme court overturn's State Law's and ban's the right of the individual citizen to own firearm's we'll see how big a fan of Federalism you are then. <P>BTW I really think that the handle "If it flie's it die's" isn't helping the image of Hunting to the public. It really carries negative connotation's for our sport.<P>Nothing personal you understand. I dont know you and wouldnt act like I did by making by making indirect comments about your character, or ,the character of other's who share your profession. I just think it's bad form thats all..........10"<P>Not that it is a great record on the federal level, but the ordinary person would probably, almost certainly, be unable to own any gun in your great state of California now, it we did not have a Federal system with the 2nd amendment, etc. Any of you non LEO types in Ca gone out and enjoyed shooting your new AR-15 lately? Tried to get a handgun permit in NYC? Etc.<P>I am not interested in whether you like my handle or not, if this was a forum frequented by numbers of the non-shooting public, I would probably not have chosen it. But, it isn't, and, last time I checked we still have the FEDERAL first amendment working for us too.<P>As for you final paragraph, I said or implied absolutely nothing about your character or the character of others in your profession. Actions, yes, character, no. But since you brought it up, I quote one of your earlier posts on this topic, "There might have been other facts to the case. Mommy might have had an attitude or refused to see the seriousness of what she did. On face value it appears it was overreaction by the LEO, but we only have heard the "face value". That type of attitude is exactly why we don't need the decision that the Supreme Court handed down yesterday. What difference should it make if "Mommy" had an attitude, what difference should it make if she does not see the seriousness of what she did(which, BTW, is crap, it was not serious, at all)? LEO's are there, theoretically, at least, to serve and protect people, not to give out their politically correct or whatever interpretation of how serious her misdemeanor is. If The LEO doesn't want to warn her, let him/her issue her a citation and go harass some other soccer mom with a car full of kids on a lonely road. Or, now, I suppose, arrest her, because she did not display the proper amount of contrition in the officer's opinion. What a crock.<P>There are many psychological studies of where any special unit, that works and trains together, develops a feeling of "us" against them. Too true in many cases, including PDs, sheriff depts, etc. Too bad for the thems, which is us, the public, now, if the LEO is having a bad day.<P>

Now that you boys are all het up , I'll throw a little more fuel on the fire . <P>According to what I read on another board , it seems the lady had a run-in with the cop in question before . She went court and beat him on some minor infraction , making him look foolish . He then took to laying for her on the stretch of road she used often , hoping he could nail her for something . So emotions on both sides were probably quite high when the stop was made . <P>Of course , I have no way of knowing if any of this story is true , but it does make sense out of the final outcome .<p>[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited April 26, 2001).]

Well, let me cool my end of this fire off a little.<P>First, I never intended to, in any way, suggest that 10point comports himself in less than a completely professional manner in his actions as an officer of the law. And, if he took it that way, I apologize.<P>Second, I know and respect many LEOs and, like most people, think they have a very tough job for which they are underpaid.<P>I have never met a LEO on a personal basis that I did not find to be a decent person just trying to do his best. However, they are human and sometimes they take themselves and their duties too seriously. They are the enforcers of the law, not the LAW, and there is a big difference. Unfortunately, some of them don't seem to understand this distinction. It, IMO, should not be within their purview to decide if someone should go to jail for a simple misdemeanor traffic violation or not. Either everyone who commits a minor misdeameanor traffic violation should go to jail, or no one should. Just my opinion, and, obviously the Supreme Court thought otherwise.<P>How long do you think the practice would last if everyone who got a speeding ticket was cuffed and booked? If it is not fair or equitable for everyone to have to do it, it is not fair for someone to be singled out. Again, assuming it is only a simple misdemeanor traffic violation. And, it is not fair for an officer to have that discretion IMO. And that is all I have to say on this matter.

I have stayed out of this because I knew where it was going. I am no mental giant I have just seen it happen too many times on this type of forum.<BR>As I understand it the question answered by the court was Do the police in Lago Vista Texas have the power of arrest in this case. It applies to Texas and has inplications for all other sates because it is a Federal Court decision. The case in point being one which many consider to be a minor and trifling incident. (At this late date we will never know the he said she said details so we might as well forget it)<BR>The answer was Yes they do have that power.<BR>If that law/power is deemed to be bad then change the law. Even as we speak the Texas legislature is considering a bill to prohibit arrest for infractions of law that carry only fines as penalties. Yes, I have contacted my representative in support of that bill.<BR>Please remember that the police do not make the law, they only enforce it. Discretion in such enforcement is subjective and some people have no common sense reguardless of what profession they are in.<BR>I am not a peace officer but there are several in my circle of friends and acquaintances. Fortunately only one that I know has no common sense and the others are working on him to correct that.<BR>Just my thoughts on the subject.<BR>BCR

What I find scary about this decision is the potential of abuse.<P>As Capt-e said... " Anyway - doing 26 in a 25? Off to jail... In some states, doing 35 in a 55? Off to jail...Forgot to put the tags on your truck, but they're in the glove compartment? Off to jail...On your way back home cause you've just realized you left your wallet in another jacket? Off to jail... Jaywalking ? Off to jail..."<P>I recall a couple years back when the Chiefs of Police and the FOP were calling for stricter gun control.<P>Assuming the local Chief decides that all motorists stopped for a traffic violation and possing a firearm for whatever reason are to be cuffed and taken in, fingerprinted, mug shot, ect. <P>Now think about this, You are on your way to your hunting camp. Rifle unloaded in the back seat and legal.<P>Cop pulls you over for a light bulb being out. Hauls your sorry butt to the station and locks you up. <P>The next day your going to buy that new gun at Joes gun shop. You have to fill out that federal form that asks if you have ever been arrested or convicted of a crime.<P>Do you think you could pass a nicks check?<P>I can shure see a lot of potential abuse<BR>in that court decision.

With a heavy heart, I admit; we live in a different country than what it used to be.<BR>I've been following this topic of discussion on several forums. <P>I thought clearly the adverse implications of this Supreme Court ruling was truly a "no brainer", clearly a violation of the 4th Amendment, clearly unconstitutional, clearly tyrannical. <P>I remember being stationed in Germany before reunification. Thoughts of "the wall" where one can look across the 1 km zone and see East German soldiers looking back through binoculars. Where one can look and actually see the gray gloom of freedom oppressed. The stories of people trying to escape to freedom and not making it.<P>All the voices from the past; forgotten.<P>John Quincy Adams hoping posterity will make good use of the freedoms that cost his generation so much.<P>As for me, I believe Ben Franklin was right. We can choose to give up our sacred liberties, one piece at a time, for the illusion of safety. It's a temporary trade-off. We'll have neither freedom nor safety. <P>And there's Thomas Jefferson's warning that government's natural course is to take power.<P>These people aren't listened to anymore, are they? There history. Times are different.<P>Well I don't know how many people took an oath to support and defend the Constitution, but I did. I will not forget the precepts and principles that made this country great and I'm sure there's many others that feel the same.<P>I lament that there may not be enough to avert this country from the same perils that have befallen others and history has recorded time and time again. I do pray that America's grand experiment in liberty will be preserved for my children's sake.<P><BR>Liberty Matters!<BR> <A HREF="http://home.midmaine.com/~briggs/" TARGET=_blank>http://home.midmaine.com/~briggs/</A> <P>Franklin, Benjamin - They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759.<P>Acton, Lord - Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.<P>Burke, Edmund - The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. 1784 speech<P><BR>

A few points that may be relevant only to me:<P>1.I dont wear seat belts.I drive my one ton a lot of the time so I'll be legal here in Texas.I've paid over 400 bucks in seat belt violation fines.I haven't paid one in ten years.It could be a coincidence,but the fines-all from two H.P.officers-stopped after I wrote the Colonel and threatened to expose a practice they had which was in violation of their own rules.I got a face to face meeting with the district guy and told him what I thought of two of his "finest".He didnt disagree.<P>2.I've paid over 2500 bucks in legal fees before we got our ccl deal to prove to a few local Barney Fife that I was" traveling".BTW,this concealed carry deal was for the benifit of urban folks.Us rural guys gave up more than we gained.<P>3.I took a piece of paper once and on the left side I wrote down every good motivation I could think of for a person to choose law enforcement as a career.On the opposite side I listed the bad ones.It became very clear to me why we get so many cops with problem attitudes.It also became clear why they are more likely to be found at the local level.The state guys are more likely to weed them out.<P>4.This is for 10 point:I was arrested,cuffed,spent the nite in the Lake Worth TX jail then taken to the FT. WORTH jail and kept until noon the next day when a friend could get there with 3000 bucks cash to bail me out.THey wanted me to use a bondsman, so they made it as difficult as possible.<BR>Texas law gave and still gives me the right to carry concealed-no liscense-when traveling.Traveling is defined-and any one of these satisfies the requirement-passing thru an adjacent county to a third county,staying overnite anywhere but home.<P>I was three counties away from home,had motel reservations,and my suitcase in plain sight.I ran a stop sign-a portable one,waist high-put there that morning and a cop stationed to watch it.I pulled my holstered Ruger security six from my glove box and placed it on the dashboard in plain sight while getting my proof of insurance.My back was to the cop.I'll never forget his words,spoken from behind;"hands on your head or I'll blow you away".<P>He was in the combat stance and when I turned[with hands on head of course]I'm looking down the barrel of his revolver.All this is taking place at 10 am on a saturday.<P>It only took about two minutes for 2 more squad cars to arrive and we all go to jail.Here's another mental picture that wont ever leave me;He marches his prisoner from car to jail with his pants stuck in his boots,my 20x resistol cocked on the back of his head and he is twirling my ruger on his trigger finger.<P>It cost me 1000 bucks for a local lawyer to whisper in the judges ear about the suitcase and the charges were dismissed.He charged me 150 bucks to go to the station house and get my ruger.<P>See,10 point,getting the ruger back was my revenge.Barney Fife told me at one point that I would never see it again.His exact words:"we are getting these off the street.It will be melted down.You'll never see it again."<P>That accounts for 1150 bucks in legal fees.I've gone thru two other similar exercises.I'll spare y'all the details.<P>I live 20 miles from the closest cop and that aint far enough.My attitude didnt create any of my cop difficulties.The difficulties created my attitude.<BR>

1. There has got to be more to this case then we are hearing. I would love to see court trancripts.<P>2. You don't sign the ticket, you go to jail.<P>3. I have never been handcuffed and do not relish the thought of having them on. 'Cuffs are about control. I have no desire to fork over control of my life to another. I imagine if 20 state troopers marched lockstep into the Supremes courtroom, jacked them outa their chairs, put the wristlock-hand between the shoulderblades move on 'em, bent them over the desk, spread their legs out with the good ol ankle kick, slapped the cuffs on nice & tight and then marched them out in front of everyone...I imagine the decision would have been quite different. Having cuffs put on gently would still suck.<P>4. Don't let this become LEO bashing. Like any other high-profile job, the press only talks about the bad ones. The vast majority do a thankless job in an exemplary manner day in and out. Jump on the courts, not the cops. <P>------------------<BR>Shoot straight and often!

<BR> It has been my observation that all guy's named "Gene" are kind of swishy. I knew several in my life and they all swished.<P> Now normally I wouldnt care if a guy painted his toenails and used makeup and such, really , what business is it of mine. But it can be a coincidence, they just have to much swish.<P> Now if I pulled a swisher named Gene over you can bet I'd yank him thru the window, spank him with his own garter belt, and hang him by those painted pink's. There's just something about that name.<P> This is to Gene William's : I live at least 2 miles from a swishy guy named Gene. I wish I could make that 1,000 mile's, thats how much I hate guy's that "walk like an Egyptian" down the street's of my town. Local Gene's are always the worst.<P> We got one guy named Gene, who's not only a swishy guy named Gene , but he's a redneck,swishy,guy, named Gene. I know, go ahead and laugh, but if you could see those hairy milky white legs, in those tight little tight short's, you'd be to busy puking.<P> Im not talking about ALL guy's named Gene of course, just the small town local redneck ones...........10<BR>

Well,you've really got me pegged,dont you 10 point?<BR>Here's one big difference between me and you:<BR>Everything I said in my post,I would say around a real campfire,with you there and with me knowing you were a cop.<P>I dont know how much time you've spent around real campfires but-without ever having seen me-you pop off a bunch of nonsense that I promise you you wouldnt say around a fire where I was standing.<P>Nothing like cyberspace to make a matt dillon out of a rank coward.

WOW, -- WOW,WOW! Sure glad I'm not a backwoods redneck. Just cause they Care flight me to the hospital and LEO maybe an hour away, depending on what part of the county they are in and how busy they are. -- no

This is starting to get a little bit redicules here. 10pnt, I find your last post <BR>quite obnoxious. This is a friendly discusion of rights, and to have it break down over degenerate remarks is a shame. I understand you wanting to defend LEO's but personal insults aren't going to do anything except make you look like a jerk.<BR> I myself have known several State Cops, and have never had a problem with any. Most of the time I have had experience with them, I had broken the law, but was still treated with courtesey and respect. Small town local LEO's are another story. I've also had experience with them. I was guilty of no offense except catching their eye at the wrong time, but was still treated like a 3rd class crook. <BR> Sorry 10pnt but I got to side with gene here. Alot of these small towners have dillusions of grandure that make them think they're Gods gift to law enforcment. The state cops outgrow this attitude, but Barney Fyfe doesn't.<BR> Feel free to question my sexual orientation, or family liniage, but that's my opinion. Maybe you know a cop in my area amd can get me cuffed and stuffed. But for a little while longer, at least I can still voice my feelings. The Constitution is cicling the drain, but hasn't gone down yet.<BR>7mmbuster<BR>Trust in God and Fear Nothing<P> 10pnt I hope you can take a disagreement on your job a little better than in this discusion. It's that kind of reation that gets alot of cops bad names.<p>[This message has been edited by 7mmbuster (edited April 28, 2001).]