Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Why no short action thumpers?

I don't know the length of the Hawk 300 gr bullet so I couldn't run any numbers, but using a Barnes 300 XFB at 1.050" long, seated 0.250" deep, 2.90" COL I came up with this in a 20" bbl using a 325 WSM case...

71.1g Exterminator powder, 100% load density, 2412 fs/49525 CUP, 71.1gr H20 case capacity, 3875 FPE ME. Highest velocity with lowest pressure of all the listed powders.

Using a Swift 400 gr Semi P, 1.405" long, seated 0.405" deep, 3.10" COL, 20" bbl, 325 WSM case, this came up...

68.5g Varget, 100% load density, 2163 fs/55378 CUP, 65.8g H20 case capacity, 4155 FPE ME. Highest velocity at almost highest pressure and way the HE** too much for my taste...I think you would get a bolt welded to the case head not just stuck in the chamber a little bit.

I'm not sure how the higher numbers were derived but I think they are extremely optimistic or were developed with a longer barrel....or some kind of witches touch. Goin to a 24" barrel only came up with 2221 fs with the 400 gr bullet.

LD came up with higher loaded case capacities but no where near the 300 gr velocity even using 2230 powder.

The 416 WSM is an excellent cartridge but it still follows the laws of physics and ballistics.

I run my 416 Taylor about 2500 f/s with a 350 gr Speer and 2350 f/s with a 400 gr Hornady, both with RL-15, and you can get 2700 f/s with a 416 Rem and larger cartridges...but I would let you pull the trigger on some 300 gr load that calculates to 2700 f/s.

A 45-100, 2.6" length case would work in a SA and produces 458 Lott numbers with a 32" barrel, if you could get the feeding problem solved.

There are many cases that could be made to work fairly easily. I built a 458 WM on a SMLE action with a COL of 3.10". It must be loaded to the SMLE action's 45 KPSI pressure rating and at 9 lbs it is a "thumper" at both ends. Just about any SA could be converted by doing a little knowledge enhancing and for those that need a little more punishment and have deep pockets, a 50 cal using any number of different cases cut to the correct size.

The only reason for no factory SA's is NO one would buy them...there are already way to many already available and much more useful calibers and WAY to many recoil sensitive wussys.

Im not sure "NO one" would buy one. I would have an interest in a .358 or 375 WSM or even a .416, but I agree with you for the most part. Im hesitant to go totally wildcat although I do reload and would enjoy the process im sure....i think. Thanks for running the numbers NFG...seems the original post that got me started may have been a little "optimistic" with the ballistic predictions. Maybe the best option would be to give the wife the 270wsm and rebarrel the 300wm to a new Ruger cartridge...hmmmmmmm....375 or 416 doh! Its a Its a sickness!!!

Love my 9.3x62 too! If I had to choose something else it would be the .358 Win.

Not a max fps kind of guy myself.

I choose both

Safe queens'

M70 in 358 - custom shop before they closed the joint
CZ550 in 9.3x62

how bout a 9.3 BS........9.3 bullet in a 350 Rem Mag case......supposed to feed quite well in a action built for a WSM

Physics,

Big guns kick, and to be managable need to have some weight to them. Hence there is no benefit in going to a shorter lighter action. So if you don't need the shorter lighter action, why would you give up magazine capacity and case capacity? Most of the big bores need all the powder capacity they can get.

And my idea of thumpers start in the 40 cals pushing 400's 2400 fps, under 40 is medium bore.

Yeah, Dude....You have to watch the "stuff" posted on forums...there are more armchairs per forum site than in all the homes in America combined....Hahahahahahaha...watch me too...I like to twist a tail now and then.

I was being more than a little facetious there with the "NO ONE" toot...and refering to what amounts needed to be sold for a factory to come up with one...I consider 375 cal to be a minimum "Big Bore"...there are quite a few that fall into that catagory that "could" be produced very quickly by gun makers...the absence of which speaks volumes...ipso facto..."NO ONE" wants them.

Anyone having a SA rifle that wants a "Big Bore" can pick from among several good "standards" and almost "standard" wildcats or cases from a long list availale from PacNor or several other barrel makers and have a prefit barrel made for around $300 and just screw it in and go shooting, and dies are available at CH4D or RCBS and most of the die makers will make dies for almost any "standard" case.

Those interested can visit CH4D at http://www.ch4d.com/ to see a list of available dies which will give you some idea of all the iterations that have been thought of over the years...wildcatting has been around since gunpowder was invented.

Those that want something "special" just need to pay the demurrage.

The 9.3x62mm is too long for a SA but the 9.3x350RM would work just as well, they both have similar case capacities and can be taken up to 416...but the WSM case has a higher capacity so would be the better case to base a SA "Big Bore" on.

Dude...you already have an action designed for the fat case and the bolt face to match...you could have a 416-458 WSM for a 500 dollar bill and a few weeks wait...and with a little work on the rails and case head/length you could turn a Rigby case into a 50 cal that would work through your action...I know this "stuff" because I've already researched it...just can't afford going MAXIMUM and WAY to wussy to deal with the resulting stomp on my pocket book or other parts of my anatomy.

I like the 416 caliber...it has hi BC's and hi SD's for it's bullets and SD is what you want for penetration...kinda like engines...torque maintains, but HP sustains...Torque turns the wheels but horsepower is what keeps the torque working.

And as I said...you don't need to go catting around...just do a 458 WM and seat a 400 gr bullet to 3.1 COL...I guarantee you will get a "kick" out of doing it. Don"t believe me just take a look at Hodgdons 2006...I get full 458 WM ballistics at pressures my SMLE will handle without any problems at all.

....AND...for the most part...there are few critters in NA that can't be handled by the 30-30 if take within the range of the cartridge.

I use larger calibers because they kill quicker and don't destroy as much meat and in the past few years I've been going to hard cast bullets at lower velocities.

I don't get bullets blowing away large chunks of meat when the bullet hits a shoulder bone...the bullet just goes right on busting up everything it hits, leaving a nice bleed hole on the other side and the animal doesn't take more than a couple of steps at the most.

I have rifles up to 54 cal and I load for the animal and ranges I will hunt, which means roughly 200 yards max.

A 300 gr .375, 400 gr .416 or 500 gr .458 bullet trotting along from 2000 to 2400 f/s will drop Joe Bugler in a heap quick time...and a 416 WSM will do that handily.

Any ShortFatMag. Basically a re-barrel.

It's not too hard of a job, but feeding can be a little tricky with blunt bullets in a bolt rifle, but that can be corrected.

They are fun!!!

Definitely...pointy bullets work better. A little work on the feed ramp, follower and spring always helps. Much of the problem is caused by the lead dragging on the ramp. Bullets with smaller amounts of exposed lead seem to slide better and getting those heavy bullets to stick their noses in the air helps also. I had more trouble getting the round to hold at the right in the mag than any thing else in my SMLE conversion. I finally made a new follower to get it right.

A .411 on a 350 case or WSM case could be interesting.....180 to 400 grain pills.

My earlier response about 'bad' projects and gunsmithing involved making a really nice Mauser 98 with all the trimmings in .284.all said and done,I was able to save the stock,found another Mauser,bought another barrel and found another gunsmith that knew how Mauser are supposed to feed and built a really slick 8x64.Lost over $2000.I have staped and glued all my reloading books closed where any 'short mags' appear...I guess my mind is too.I don't understand what they do?? The rifles weight the same,work the same,need the same barrel lenght.Old maybe,stubborn,yes..just have no use for WSM's........

Pick up a kimber montanna wsm and it should be clear.

But if you'd try to build a .284 on a mauser 98, maybe you just don't get it.

I'm sorry,I should have included the fact,I DON"T DO PLASTIC....
I'm a blue steel and walnut guy....But,yes,.284's can be made to work on Mausers,however the gunsmith I used ground out the feed rails too much and ruined the action.That was 25 years ago and I still remember that lesson....

Hmmmmm....... an SMLE rebarreled to .45-70, would be very interesting.................

Yes,a SMLE is a Mule. I tried one of those back in the 80's for local Hog huntin'.Never did get it to shoot that well and feeding could be a beast....I went back to a .350 mag and then a .44 Smith.

What about the 458 SOCOM. Now that comes in a nice short action rifle with no worries about short stroking the bolt, and it hits like a 45-70.

Hey Guys
New to the forum, but ran across this thread somehow. This is right up my alley. I created the B&M series rifles and cartridges based on Winchester M70 WSM actions, and one cartridge for WSSM actions starting in 2005-in 416 B&M-458 B&M-50 B&M Super Short-and 50 B&M Long. A brief as follows;

Winchester M70 WSM Action 20 inch barrel
416 B&M is a 2.240 inch cartridge basically 300 gr bullets at 2650-350s at 2450-400s at 2300 fps.

Winchester M70 WSM 18-20 inch barrels
458 B&M-18 inch barrel-350s at 2450 fps-400s at 2300 fps-450s at 2220 fps-500s at 2130 fps.

Winchester M70 WSSM Action 16 inch barrel
50 B&M Super Short-True .500 caliber (NOT .510)-325s at 2250 fps-375-385 at 2100 fps-400s at 1950 fps--450s at 1800 fps-500s at 1700 fps.

Winchester M70 WSM 18 inch barrel
50 B&M Long-.500 caliber-510 gr at 2100 fps-470 at 2175 fps-426 2260 fps.

Someone on this thread actually saw one of the 50 Super Shorts on gunbroker recently.

I won't go into other details, but the rifles are out there, they are performing fantastic, light, short, easy to carry and handle. I have been using them since 2005. SSK Industries builds all the guns, have reamers, dies, and proper head stamped brass available.

If anyone would like to chat about any of them feel free to drop me a note to michael458earthlink.net, be glad to talk about them and get you some more information.

Michael

I've been reading this thread and the article about the conception and development of the 9.3BS keeps sticking in my mind. The whole thing was an "April Fool" and it got taken seriously. MuleDeer can tell me if I'm wrong.
There are dozens of rounds developed all of which do the same thing but just have different names.
I have very little use for the short mags but I have one -a 300WSM in a Tikka lite.
The 358 Win or 350 RM or 9.3x62 will all do the job.

NFG, thanks for the link on CH4D!

drducati: The 9.3 BS is real. Barsness and Sisk actually built one on a necked up 350 Rem mag case. I am certain if you contact Mr. Sisk he can make one.

As an owner of a 6.5 lb 358 win and a 8 lb 375 Taylor, I liked reading the opinions and ideas here. Helps feed the fire...

AZ,
I know the 9.3BS is real(and good) but my point is that the article about it was written as an April Fool joke on handloaders. It is the genuine article-just irrelevant.
Years ago there was a similar story in a mystery magazine about a pathologist who decided to make a disease to be named after him. He took all the neat things that made diseases interesting to pathologists and rolled them together into a "new disease" and described several cases. Of course the best thing about a new disease is it must be incurable.Soon people were diagnosing the new disease and lo and behold the pathologist discovered he now had it-and died.
JB invented a new disease for handloaders and soon they were discovering it.
My $.02.