Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Ex Senator Bob kerry

Why do people feel it is necessary to lift the scab off old wounds?<P>It's gone, it happened, ain't nothing we ever do is going to bring those people back. Why go after this ex-senator and create yet another casualty? He has some guilt problems let him alone to work through them.<P>People do strange things in the heat of battle.<P>Judging from the citation for the MOH this guy was made of the right stuff. I think he was thinking of the safety of his men and the success of the mission. Many, many civilians died in this war. Are we going to go after the B52 pilots who bombed Hanoi?<P>I don't think so.<P>Cheers<P>pete

Here is another board with some information on this story.<P><A HREF="http://www.HardCoreTalk.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000572.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.HardCoreTalk.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000572.html</A>

JayH, -- I don't know where you took your training but partner, WAR IS WAR,that means killing to win, no other way in the field. When you start attacking people here around the campfire get ready for smoke and flame. War is not pretty in any sense of the word and is the bare facts, real world, we live in today. I read part of your referal down to where somebody said somebody said somebody said. When I trained troops I would line up the whole flight and whisper a story to the first man and they in turn would tell the story to the man behind him,(seventy men). The last man was called to the front of the room to tell the story while the first man waited out of the room. After the airman told his story the first man was called back into the room and told his story. Many things change in very short order through several people. This demostration was so our people could see the validity of second hand gossip. You sir evidently know nothing about what you are speaking but relay gossip. If the positions were changed and you were in the position those men were, at the time, I wonder how you would react. I definately don't want you on my team when the going gets tough. We have lost enough Americans fighting other peoples wars, where life means nothing except to the owner! My world is changing and I must say for the worst, I hate to see my kids living what is coming, if your way is part of it. Who can fight for a country that will turn their back on you years later and say you are a criminal. Who can be a police officer and be tried for murder while doing their duty, as they see fit, under stress at the time? Do gooders that second guess what happened and yell for their protectors to be punished are like a person that beats his dog for protecting your house. Sorry if this offended anyone but please understand WAR is not for sissies, it is our people who are fighting to protect us and our way of life, guided by the people we elect and appointed to do the dirty work. In war time, most are just kids, fresh out of school, doing what they are told to do under threat of punishment if they do not. This younger generation that has never seen war has a bitter pill to swallow if it ever returns. -- no

Need One, Smoke And Flame all you want Pal. I speek the truth and if anyone dosen't like it...Tough. If I think someone is a dingbat I will say so! It's my opinion and you Sir are not going to stop me from voicing it. <P>If you don't like what you read here, you just grab that little mouse of yours and click away.<P>You trained troops? Airmen...LOL. You gotta be kidding.<P>And you told them wonderful stories just to see if it would be changed...LOL.<P>Then you state "This demostration was so our people could see the validity of second hand gossip."<P>Need One, Is that one of the major lessions you taught your combat troops...LOL<P>"You sir evidently know nothing about what you are speaking but relay gossip."<P>Now Need One, You do read the papers don't you. This information was in the papers, on TV and to YOU it's Gossip!<P>I do not know for a fact that what is alleged against Kerrey is factual, but I must assume that with three witnesses, one being one of his own men that there is some fact involved here. Only a blind man would think otherwise.<P>I sure am happy I wasn't in your outfit Bud.<BR>You sound like the commanding type that would get his men killed. Did you have the "boys"<BR>polish their brass and boots so they would blind the enemy in combat....LOL<P>Your problem Need One is that you can not accept the fact that the alleged actions taken by Kerreys squad are war crimes if they indeed are true.<P>You have a great day <P><BR>

No he sould not be brought up on war crimes, anybody who would think that is nuts. I had 2 uncles killed and my father was wounded in the war. From all the stories I hear, women and children were just like men they would do what they could to kill our soldiers. If they had not done what they did, then some of our soldiers might have been killed by the people they killed.<BR>As far as the war goes, if DC had allowed the people over there to run the war, we would have won. After tet, the people of the U.S. were misinformed of what was going on. If they knew that we were actually winning not loosing, more people would have been for it.<BR>I don't know how many people will get mad over what I say, but i don't care. Like others say war is war and you do what you must to survive. If they were innocent, then it was a accident, s..t happens. The past is gone and things can't be changed. Why bring it up after all these years? let the dead rest in peace, and give credit to those who served their country during this time. It take more guts to do what they did than to run with their tail between their legs. <BR>senator Kerry is a hero, because he made a decision that others might not have, and he got the job done.<BR>If anyone is mad at me for stating this, it happens to. I'm just responding to the post.<BR>86

You keep taking your meds boy or whatever else you might be smoking. The world is rosey and pass the grass and get a little ass....LOL

JayK, -- thank you, I always have a great day, to see the light of day. It is plain to see you have never been in the military and have always had someone fighting your battles for you, now you want me to believe what I read in the papers and hear on the TV. You are definately one of the younger generation that hasen't been christened by the real world. When the real patriots of this country quit protecting you and your kind of justice, hope you wear your number with pride instead of carring it in your pocket. YES, you and I see things differently, and we discuss them here around our campfire because of men that fought for us. Are you a woman, perhaps a mother that has a hard time accepting what it means to fight a war. Look at the wartime cemeterys and all the crosses of people who have died protecting us and ask them, was it worth it. <BR>My mouse don't click and my flame don't die when it comes to standing up for my countrymen. By the way, what part of the world are you in, I know where you should be. -- no<P>Oh yes, my men did polish their boots and the floors, I gave many white glove inspections. We won every flight competition,(Honor Flight), for all phases of training and carried the flag proudly in front of the flights. This was a team effort of the Tatical Instructors,(two or three), and the motivated men of the flight. The boys I was the hardest on was the ones that wrote me back from their duty stations, thanking me for taking the time to help them. So little, but meant so much, made the 18 hour days worth it.<p>[This message has been edited by need one (edited May 03, 2001).]

Yea right bud, I have never been in the service and you are little dink service brat playing hero after watching toooo.. many war movies....LOL<P>You won the flight competition, wow, Did they give you a gold dewy button for that great feat? Kinda like boy scouts with all the ribons and badges for each accomplishment. I am Really impressed..LOL<P>I kinda figured you to be one of those wannabe seal types. You know, Big husky, give no quarter rambo types but instead you come off as the towel boy that hands them a towl as the big husky men step out of the pool ...LOL<P>White glove inspections...LOL<BR>That fits you perfectly Mr. Clean, A real Warrior!<P>" The boys I was the hardest on was the ones that wrote me back from their duty stations, thanking me for taking the time to help them. So little, but meant so much, made the 18 hour days worth it.<P>What friggin service were you in that one of your "boys" wrote you back to thank you.<P>This is too too much for me. I have known NO one that ever did that. We are talking about the real world here Bud! What the hell do you think the service is all about? Being nice and sending thank you notes... <P>If your an example of what the service is turning out these days, god help us all.<P>You have a great day Bud <P>

JayH, -- thank you again, you just made my day. It's plain to see you are flustrated and don't know which way to run. This is my last post to you Mr Troll, look elsewhere for someone to play with. This campfire is for the grown ups. Good bye and good luck in your quest. -- no

I am sorry Need One if the truth hurts ya but I am a beleaver in calling an Ace and Ace and a Spade a Spade.<P>You need not worry about me getting flustered Mr Clean. Takes a better man than you to do that..... LOL<P>You have a great day Bud <P>

hey guys,<BR>I'm not taking sides on this love fight you are having, but hell everyone has their opinion even if its wrong. I prefer to see that Kerry did the right thing and that you guys are just using this to light up the fire. <BR>And JayH if you were refering to me about taking my meds, then that is another matter. For a moment try to imagine yourself in their shoes and how you would have responded. Try to see what it was like in nam. And no I'm not smoking anything and if I was from the way you have been replying to this thing, I won't give you a darn thing. <BR> Learn to grow up and face the facts. You and everyone else can say what they want, but when a youngbuck try's it, he is smoking something or hasn't taken his meds. Come on. <BR> I hope after this is all over everyone came just be friends. Good discussion though.<BR>86

While he did kill civilians, he did it under the duress and worry of battle. And from what I have heard on Vietnam, they did use civilians to take out our troops. They would put a bomb or something on them that would be triggered by an American troop. Would you take any chances if you were in that situation? No, he was definately not a hero, but he did what he thought he had to do. And it is a lot easier second guessing people 30 years later than to be in the same situation that they were in. <BR> While we're at it, let's all gang up on the guys that Enola Gayed Japan. They killed 30,000 people (mostly civilians) from way up in the air with an atomic bomb. And they knew exactly what they were droppong the bomb on also.

big hunter,<BR>you are right, thank you for clarifying that for me, I guess if I called him a hero I was wrong to say that. I am all for senator Kerry, but some of the things I said that might have affended anybody I apologize. I also believe that if you compare the a bomb to Kerry, that most people would look at his situation a lot different, I know I do. I still feel he acted right and made the right move, but a hero I can't really say that really no more.<BR>86

Ok Guys, my two cents, and we all know a penny isn't worth much today.<P>I belive that Kerry is Guilty of the action described by his team mate. There are two many witnesses on both sides to dispute it. I believe Kerry has lied to the press in his description of this action, and in his after action report, or debriefing. Remember his team mate was a Seal for 19 years, and his story matched exactly that of witnesses on the other side.<P>But all of this is hind site. And one item I haven't heard mentioned so far, is that this was basically a covert mission by a team of Seal's to capture certain persons. I have no idea what was required or thought at the start, to quite the first of the victims for the team to continue their mission. I don't think anybody ever will. Would I have killed the old woman, and the young girls. No! But I wasn't their. Is Kerry a hero, No!, Should he have received a medal for this action, No! Do I think he should be convicted of a crime, No! Should Kerry be compared with Calley, No! But it should be noted that they both followed orders from officers higher up, to their understanding. And both probably did their best to that end.<P>But in the end they both have to answer to their own conscious.<P>Phil

Listen up folks, I take all this crap with a grain of salt. I hold no hard feelings towards anyone here. I just lied... But WTF. <P>Folks, there is a difference when you have taken prisoners and then kill them all. This is not a firefight with a few civilian casualties. <P>There are rules to war that a few seem to forget exist. Your not out there to kill everything that moves, just the enemy.<P>When you take on the attitude that everyone you encounter is the enemy and deserves death, then you have crossed the line.<P>I don't give a damn about excuses and neither do the relatives of the of the people that were murdered.<P>As far as I am concerned, if this story is true, then hang that damn liberal democrat!<P>And if he was a republican I would hang him too.<P>Big Hunter, what chance was he taking? Hell when you light up the night with auto fire do you suppose the person he was looking for is going to come a running? This is one big bull **** story with one purpose. It's called CYA.<BR>Or Cover Your Ass to you civilians.<P>You all have a great day <P><BR>

Well, JayH, I'm not going to take a position on Kerry's actions, I wasn't there, and apparently all but one of his team tell the same, but a different story from his accusor.<BR>I don't know what happened, but, if I thought killing a bunch of possible fighting enemy civilians would, in any way, help a team of Americans.....seals, beanies, a downed pilot, or whomever.....escape, then they would have a very bad day. In time of war, or anytime for that matter, I place American lives at the top of the list, ahead of all others, may not be fair, may not be right, but that is the way it is with me.<P>I notice that you are highly critical of Need Ones honorable service to his country, doing what he was assigned to do. Maybe you have that right, but before I listen to you anymore, how about giving us your service, MOS, rank, and time in country? If any.

Well boys, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I REALLY DO BELIEVE that if you believe the story as presented by the TV people, you are a fool. I am NOT saying that Kerry was right or wrong, just that the media can NOT be trusted.<BR>Have you never heard "if its' on the TV, it can't be true?" Don't think for a minute that the media doesn't pick and choose which stories it will run, and what the content will be. Remember how they edited and butchered the SCI piece a while back?<P>And another thing, JayH, yes you can voice your opinion. But you sound SOOO much like the various trolls that happen by here that I am afraid that you will have a devil of a time being taken seriously here by anyone. So if you want to play here, that's OK, but don't be shocked if everyone here tires of you and your borish attacks on people we know and trust. Feel free to ADD something, instead of tearing down, JayH.<P>Tell us what it is that you have done for your country that makes you the expert. I myself am grateful for each and every one of our servicemen, past and present, that have given so much for you and I to be here. It will not be long before Memorial Day is observed. I will thank a Vet for his sacrifice and service, and invite you to do the same. Bill

I can't beleive that someone that beleives in any kind of real principals and the "Right to bear arms" would ever beleive anything "60 Minutes" reports on. They as well as 99.999% of the media are just a bunch of whining, sniveling, cowardly lowlife liberals that can only report on anything in their totally one sided "made to fit their needs" liberal way of reporting!!! If we beleived in what they try to ram down our throats we would be speaking Japanese or counting our money in rubles. mtgoat out.....

I hate to bring up a phoney Hollywood movie BUT I remember the movie "Casulties of War",with Sean Penn.The movie portrays a group of soldiers in Vietnam that end up rapeing and murdering a Vietnamese girl.Michael Fox plays the "good" soldier that ends up reporting the matter and all the crap he goes through to get the truth out.O.K.,IT'S NOT A TRUE STORY...BUT...you can use the same analagy(?)here.The stress of battle makes people do things they never thought they would do.Would you hold an American responsable for an atrocity he perpretrated under the hell of war?Not toomany juries now a days would.Maybe in the 60's(Lt. Callie).

Friends we must remember that arguing with an idiot is fruitless; first they bring you down to their level then they beat you with expirence. <BR>Time to go back to your cell Jay and take your meds, soon you'll be free and have to act like a big boy. <P>You bud<P>Bullwnkl.