Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin Talk +P loads for 45-70

You make my point very well.



There is none.



Really? Where? I only doubt it myself because I haven't seen any published data that will. That doesn't mean that there isn't some out there. I just haven't seen it. If you know please share.


As far as I know there is no way to know that you are within the 40,000 cup limit with the published Hodgdon loads without actually measuring the pressure. Of course if you have the same rifle they used and the same barrel length you might use a chronograph to estimate similar conditions but even the chrono won't do the trick if the barrel is the 18 1/2" Guide version. And to refer back to one of the points in my original post:



This refers to two grains of powder, two different guns, but a very steep pressure increase. Just why cannot be determined but it is an accepted admonition even with stronger rifles to use caution when the pressure curve begins to make abrupt changes such as that. While their data reflects two different rifles and wouldn't automatically be the same in a single gun it does, at least, suggest that the propellent used may have this tendency in this cartridge.

And to assume, as some seem to, that is possible to get a certain velocity (with their own handloads) because one can buy ammo that gets there is pointless as well. Without know exactly what components are being used commercially as well as any special methods they use, one cannot 'copy' a certain loading without pressure measuring equipment.

I don't doubt the strength of the Marlin. The early modern version I lost years ago produced plenty of power. I don't doubt that my current carbine version will serve as well and I don't mind working it to its potential. I just want to it to be as safe and reliable as the rest of the guns I own. And I really don't care what anyone else does to their 1895 except that it would be a great disservice to Marlin and a stain on the reputation of a great rifle if a bunch of these guns began to show up on the used gun racks in questionable condition.

Here's a few tested loads in the .450 Marlin Guide Gun with different bullets and pressure tested.

All in a 18.5 inch Barrel.

Barnes 250 gr X-Bullet-2383 fps at 41,700 PSI
Barnes 300 gr X-Bullet-2100 fps at 41,400 PSI
Nosler 300 gr Part-2333 fps at 40,600 PSI
Sierra 300 gr SP-2328 fps at 41,500 PSI

Hornady 350 gr Interlock-2052 fps at 41,400 PSI
Speer 350 gr FNSP-2063 fps at 42,000 PSI

Speer 400 gr FN-1856 fps at 40,500 PSI
Swift 400 gr A-Frame-1928 fps at 40,900 PSI

Hornady Factory 350 gr Ammo-2028 fps at 41,900 PSI.

All in the Guide Gun and pressure checked by a test barrel and the SAAMI max for the .450 Marlin is 43,500 PSI.So as you can see in the 350 grain loads that 2063 fps out of the Guide Gun is still under the SAAMI max.

Brian Pierce tested the .450 Marlin and the 45-70 Guide Gun,s on his chrono at 15 Degree's with the 450 Marlin factory ammo doing 1917 fps and Buffalo Bores 350 Grain 45-70 at 2,010 fps.Almost 100 fps faster than the .450 Marlin Factory ammo in 15 degree Idaho weather.This lot of 45-70 ammo was pressure checked at Hodgdon at 39,500 CUP.

So in my opinion even with different bullet's the velocities are well within the limit's of 43,500 PSI or 40,000 CUP.

There are a lot more examples with a test barrel that show these velocities are achievable,but I don't want to spend the whole night trying to copy them.
Jayco.

Klikitarick-This was a reply from Hodgdon powder reguarding a load using three different componant's than listed in the Hodgdon manual and was called into question by the user,so he e-mailed to be sure.A 300 grain Nosler at 2282 fps out of the Guide Gun.Here is the responce from Hodgdon about different componant's and there load data and velocities.
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Your loads should be just fine and certainly within the operating limits of your rifleYou may be running slightly higher pressures than our test data due to the use of the nickel plated brass and factory crimp. Nickel plating of brass does decrease the capacity of the brass by a tiny fraction and the factory crimp does a better job of retaining the bullet than a standard roll crimp. The increase in pressure over our results would be minor.



Some folks would point to the velocity you are getting and say that your pressures must be high to get this level of performance from your short barrel. There can be several explanations for this. Variation in chamber, throat, bore, different primers, brass, bullets and, of course, the test equipment can all cause changes in resultant velocity/pressure. As I am certain you are aware, pressure is not linear with velocity. And, as is commonly known, we shoot SAAMI test barrels with minimum chamber, bore, throat dimensions which means that, on average, consumer firearms will get lower pressure with the same loads due to increased chamber size and easy of bullet passage in the bore.



The bottom line here is that you are getting no signs of pressure that would indicate any problems. There is no research that would indicate your brass would give significantly higher pressures than the same brand of brass without plating. There is no research suggesting that there are significant differences in pressure caused by changing brands of large rifle primers. You are not experiencing any type of indication which would lead us to conclude that you have any problem at all using this load in your rifle.



Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction
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As you can see there was know cause for concern.
Jayco.

Hodgdon #27
45-70 Government Marlin 1895
350 grain Hornady RN
Winchester brass
CCI 200 primers
54 grains H4198 MAXIMUM
2191 fps in a 24" barrel
In most Marlin 1895G rifles this load will certainly exceed 1950 fps or even 2000 fps, and will most likely achieve 2050 to 2080 fps. And yes a chronograph is very useful in working up a load in an 18.5" barrel that is published from a 24" barrel. And more common sense than fear, as well.

You continue to grasp at straws. There is no way of really knowing you are within the 60,000 PSI limit that SAAMI establishes for the 30-06 SPRG either without measuring the pressure. That sure hasn't stopped people from working up and using published maximum loads for the 30-06. That is a red herring.

Your quote of a 25% increase in pressure with a 4% increase in the charge assumes that someone would exceed a published load for the Marlin 1895. No one here is suggesting that would be done except you. So it is a red herring as well.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the Hodgdon 45-70 data for the Marlin 1895, whether it has a 24 inch barrel or an 18.5" one. Adapting load data to individual rifles and components is a very real part of reloading and it is done all the time. And done safely by the vast and overwhelming majority of those who do it. You can't control what any one person is going to do. But it is just plain wrong to suggest that a 350 grain 45-70 load achieving over 2000 fps in the Guide Gun is necessarily dangerous.

The Marlin 1895s that have been properly used with 40,000 CUP loads are not the ones that are going to end up on the gun racks in questionable condition.

Here is the comparison of 350 grain .458 bullets shot in a 24 inch test barrel and then the 18.5 inch Guide gun.



2216 fps to 2052 fps-164 fps difference.VVN-133 W/350 Hornady-41,400 PSI

2170 fps to 2041 fps-129 fps difference.AA2015 W/350 Hornady-40,200 PSI

2235 fps to 2063 fps-172 fps differenceAA2520 W/350 Speer-42,000 PSI

2153 fps to 2025 fps-128 fps difference.H-4198 W/350 Speer-40,100 PSI



Or an average of 148 fps difference from the 24 inch barrel to the 18.5 inch barrel and all within the pressures of the .450 or 45-70.

Logcutter,

Thanks for the info on that. While I know that can be useful I would like to see the credible published sources for some of these 2000+ fps Guide Gun loads for the 45-70. I realize that the same loads developed in a smaller case (450) will likely show less pressure and velocity out of the slightly larger case (45-70). Can it be done without extrapolating? In other words, is there published data that reflects similar possibilities? As you undoubtedly know reading pressure signs at 40,000 is not that same as reading them at higher pressures so knowing before you get far beyond that point seems prudent.


Jackfish,

While you might believe that I am �grasping at straws� that is not my intention. I would just like to get some clarity since the issue (heavy loading the 1895) seems to be fairly common. If this is indeed as simple and safe as some make it out to be including, I think, yourself, then data should be relatively easy to produce. I am aware of the Hodgdon data you quote. That is the same source I quoted in my initial post at the top of this thread. I have gone over this before but I�m not sure you�re getting at what I�m saying in regard to that load. Maybe I haven�t been clear on this point so I�ll try again. Hodgdon lists, as you and I have both quoted, 54.0 grains MAXIMUM of H4198 for 39,X00 CUPs in the 1895. They also show a MAXIMUM load for the Ruger #1 of 56.0 grains same powder, same primer, same case, same bullet, same OAL, same barrel length, but those additional two grains show an increase of pressure up to 50,000 cup in the Ruger rifle. I AM NOT suggesting that that might be a useful load for the Marlin. All I�m saying is that it appears to be a load which could easily be very close to a sharp pressure curve increase. In some guns that pressure may spike at a somewhat lesser loading than the 54.0 grain maximum while others may take more. Since the Marlin rifle is not as strong as a good bolt action it is not possible by an ordinary means I am aware of to tell if you have reached or gone beyond the pressures published there. True, people load the 30-06 and many other higher pressure cartridges in stronger guns right up to the maximums listed but those stronger guns can contain higher excess pressures than can the Marlin. The cartridge case itself and other factors warn of excesses at the higher pressures that cannot be known at excessive lesser pressures that a Marlin might be subject to.

As I�m sure you know, the advice in any good handloading manual is to work a load up watching for signs which might indicate pressures beyond what is acceptable. While most published loads seem to be fine in most rifles, there are exceptions. Those acceptions are rare enough that it is tempting to assume that the manuals are intentionally conservative for various reasons. Yet, if you have ever had a gun that has, for some reason, been intolerant of normal published loads you will look at this issue quite differently I�m sure. Since there are fewer pressure signs at the lower pressures that the Marlin can safely contain the need for solid data is very important in my opinion. This is reinforced by the fact that loading to 40,000 cups is considerably over the 28,000 cups approved by the manufacterer of the gun. And while the gun does have a widely accepted reputation for strength greater than 28,000 cups the higher levels do obviously decrease the safety margin which the gun can contain over and above the higher limit.

The issue is not nearly as difficult to understand as it is to try to explain. You have, for the most part, been a decent and civil respondant to my queries and I appreciate that. It does seem, however, that you are trying to avoid the issue to some extent. I do believe you know those aren�t �red herring� as you call them. I believe this issue is real. While maybe not impossible, I am not convinced that the 2000+ velocities are easily obtained in the 18 1/2� barreled Marlin 45-70. There is an apparent dearth of data to support it anyway. And I suspect that the gun is frequently abused by those who attempt to do it without doing their homework. I was hoping you or someone else might produce sources for more than the single published load which I already have (and has the potential difficulties previously outlined.)


Logcutter,

Thanks for that last data as well. Would you mind revealing the source?

Klikitarick-I too am quite suspect of loads that are near a max charge,as we should be.I take absolutely know data reguardless who it is from unless there is pressure data with it.There is a lot of it on the internet and from some notible people who some might just take there word for it.Not me.When I work up a Hunting load,I use the chrono and other factor's to determine when I am close to max.The classic signs don't show up at 40,000 as you know.But with the chrono and case expantion which increases consistanly with increases in powder charge and recoil,one can get pretty close with the chrono being the first line of defense. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The article was from Rick Jaimeson and the .450 Marlin.I have the magazine article which goes into detail more with charts etc.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/ShootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=40

Have a good one.Jayco.

Klikitarik,



The clarity you seek is exactly what you continue to obfuscate. You exhibit your bias by saying �heavy loading the 1895.� Would you say working up and using loads within the safe operating pressure of the 30-06 is �heavy loading� the 30-06? I don�t think so. But for some reason when referring to working up and using loads within the safe operating pressure of the 45-70 in the Marlin 1895 it is proposed something disastrous will occur. It is simple and safe and the data to support it has been produced. Hodgdon currently is the only source that documents pressure barrel tested loads to 40,000 CUP for the Marlin 1895 45-70. That is enough for me, but obviously not enough for you. Other sources say they limit 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895 to 35,000 or 40,000 CUP but do not document the pressure of those loads. The Hodgdon data suggests that that with a powder of proper burning characteristics the 350 grain bullet can be safely driven over 2000 fps in the Marlin 1895G. Without pressure testing similar loads for IMR4198, Reloder 7, Vihtavuori N133, Accurate Arms XMR-2015, ADI AR2207, IMR 3031, Norma N-200, and Norma N-201 the additional published information is not yet available. However, the Hodgdon data is repeatable and therefore valid. I get 2150 fps with that load out of my 22� barreled 1895. I�ve been shooting that rifle since 1977 and within the last ten years it has seen a steady diet of maximum loads with the 405 grain Remington JSP. I don�t consider it �heavy loading� anymore than I would consider loading a 139 grain bullet to 3150 fps in a 280 Remington Ackley Improved a �heavy� load. A maximum load within the safe operating pressure of a cartrudge/rifle combination is just that, the maximum load that can be used over the expected service life of the rifle. It is a load that allows the rifle to withstand the stress of firing and return to stasis without undue wear or affect on servicability. The hyperfear exhibited over the 45-70 by some segments of the industry and shooting community is based on a long history of complicated factors. However, the facts bear out that the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is at least 40,000 CUP and there is no more danger achieving that level than there is in reaching maximum loads for any other cartridge/rifle combination.



You have been plenty clear about your confusion over the characteristics of and potential use of 45-70 loads intended for the Marlin 1895 and the Ruger #1. First, you suggest that the Hodgdon maximum load of 54 grains of H4198 used in some rifles will reach dangerous pressure levels due to individual characteristics. This may be true, but it is the case with every other cartridge/rifle combination. You seem to be proposing that the Marlin 1895 45-70 is somehow different, I contend it is not any different than any other carrtidge/rifle combination that we use maximum load information for. All of the techniques, procedures and cautions are generally the same for the use of published maximum load data for any cartridge/rifle combination. There is nothing inherently different with the Marlin 1895 45-70. The limit developed for it is based on the same considerations that are used to develop the limits for any other cartridge/rifle combination. Second, you claim that there is some kind of pressure spike because of a change in charge not intended for the Marlin 1895 creates a larger increase in pressure. It is not unusual for relatively fast powders to exhibit larger increases in pressure as the loading density increases. To assume that that will necessarily occur at a lower loading density is not correct no matter the individual characteristics of the rifle. It is irrelevant that the Marlin 1895 is not a �good bolt action�, as pointed out before the limits developed for it are based on the same considerations as for any other cartridge/rifle combination. It is all relative, and does not suggest that the Marlin 1895 is any more prone to fail when working around maximum pressures than doing the same thing with a �good bolt action.� A bolt action is certainly stronger than the Marlin 1895 but they are not necessarily designed to contain higher excess pressure. A proof load for either is a prescribed percentage of excess and does not mean the Marlin 1895 will fail sooner than the bolt action given relative increases in pressure. The cartridge case of the 45-70 certainly can indicate excessive pressure in the Marlin 1895 as well as those cartridges used in a bolt action. Extraction, case lengthening and pressure ring expansion can be just as reliable in the Marlin 1895 45-70 as extraction, primer condition and pressure ring expansion is in a bolt action.



The best tool we have in absence of pressure testing equipment to consistently work up maximum loads for any cartridge/rifle combination is the chronograph used in conjunction with published data. Velocity in excess of the published maximum velocity is a very reliable sign that one has gone too far. It is not difficult to estimate the expected velocity for loads in rifles of different barrel lengths. There are more than enough indicators that become evident in the Marlin 1895 45-70 to become aware that one might possess an exception. There are not necessarily fewer pressure signs with the Marlin 1895, but there are adequate pressure signs.



This has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. Marlin is a member of SAAMI and must promote SAAMI standards. The SAAMI pressure specification for the 45-70 is based on the vast number of older weaker rifles in circulation. However, the standard does not even protect them as many older Springfield Trapdoors should not be subjected to more than 19,000 to 21,000 CUP. Marlin�s support of 28,000 PSI for the Marlin 1895 is institutional, not technical. Essentially the same rifle is industry standard loaded to over 40,000 CUP in at least two instances. There is no more decrease in safety margin loading the Marlin 1895 to 40,000 CUP than there is loading any other cartridge/rifle cartridge combination within its safe operating pressure. That argument is another of your red herrings.



I still believe many of your arguments are red herrings. They are really not relevant to the issue at hand. It is not anymore dangerous to work up to and use a published maximum load following accepted reloading practices for the Marlin 1895 45-70 than it is to do so in any other cartridge/rifle combination. The non-issue you promote is not borne out by the facts. There is sufficient information to show that the Marlin 1895G can indeed achieve 2000 fps with a 350 grain bullet, even if you refuse to believe it or believe it has to be dangerous. I don�t doubt there are many people who have pushed the Marlin 1895 over the limit and continue to do so at their peril. I remember well T/C Kid and his iterations on the Big Bore Lever Rifle forum on Marlin Talk. But anyone who follows accepted reloading practices and uses Hodgdon #27 data for the Marlin 1895 45-70 are not in that group.



Again, the potential difficulties you refer to exist for the reloading of any cartridge/rifle combination and the Marlin 1895 is not somehow inherently different or more prone to mishap than any other.

Greetings Gents
You need to go on over tho Leverguns.com site and see the post by Jim Taylor and Buck Elliott about this topic.
http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2060

If the link dosen't take you there, go to the General Discussion and then to page two. The topic title is Strongest Lever Action. I must read.

30-30 Man

Wow, very impressive for a armchair hunter. Maybee we should change your handle to BLOWfish after writing that book <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Are you going to contribute something worthwhile to the debate or just spew more of your inane drivel? Man, I must have really bruised ya. Poor thing!

3030man-Hey thanks.That was some good reading from people that really know .Some good testing and results that I have never seen before.
Thanks again.Jayco.

Everyone's been over this before and ran in into the ground. If you want a 45-70 there are lots of manuals and loads that will make your gun shoot from mild to mean but if you want a 700 nitro express, just buy one and don't waste everyones time trying to "take it to the max" in a gun that wasn't designed for it. I have an old Krag that shoots fine with ordinary reloading manul loads. If I wanted a 300 Weatherby Mag I sure wouldn't see if I could stuff a bunch more powder in the Krag and hold it all together with duct tape!

Tired of it in the U.P., Krag

I think the equation is +P45/70=450M but I could be wrong and that is backwards. It might be 450M=+P45/70. In any advent I whole heartily agree with Krag. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phil

This thread has been quiet for awhile but I have read it with great interest.

This is one mans opinion and rational for limiting the Marlin 45-70 to 40,000 psi.

http://www.real-guns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

I think the African hunting talking heads over at AR would say that the .458" 300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point has a woefully inadequate sectional density for a dangerous game load. A .458" 450 grain bullet (.306 sectional density) launched 2125 fps would yield 4500 fpe, however, those same talking heads would say that it was still inadequate by not reaching the minimum 2150 fps desired for a DGR.

Every thing is in the numbers even if proven wrong.We all know the 45-70 or the 454-475-500 some pistol calibers can kill the big 5 while others that meet the criteria have failed in performance.I personally wouldn't take the 300 Nosler or the 45-70 to africa even if they met the criteria.There are better choices out there for Africa.

That's what the joke is about.If a .450 Marlin could meet the criteria with a bullet designed for 45-70 velocities then something is wrotten in Denmark.Never been a big believer in SD-TKO-Energy etc.

Just my opinion and I don't bring it up over there.Jayco.

I hear ya on that one.

The reason thepresure is going up with so litle increase in powder is because 4198 is so fast burning. Use rel. 7 or varget or ww-748. You can get max velocitys with much less presure.