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Example: Jesus has a fascinating and bried conversation with a thief who was hanging beside Him This thief didn't, by the way, even "repent" or pray in the evangelical altar-call way. He only rebuked the other thief, then asked Jesus, "Rememeber me when you come into Your Father's kingdom," and Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise." Sounds to me like that thief was consdered "saved" by Jesus. That's kind of hard on us evangelicals who need more than that before we call someone "saved."

I have stated what the Bible clearly says is the way of salvation. Contradict or rationalize it away if you wish, but you do that at your peril, and do a disservice to the lost, who do not know the way to God. It does them no good to comfort them with the approach that they will learn someday, and in the meantime are saved. That is untrue.

Jerry,

I keep wondering what posts you are reading. I re-read my post and I can't see anywhere where I said that salvation is other than trusting Christ, placing our faith in Him. You keep turning that to mean that whoever cuts a Roman Catholic some slack, they are promoting faith plus works and hold a faulty view of justification. You seem to have trouble differentiating between an institutional set of beliefs and a personal belief system.

Fact is, you are an American citizen. Do you agree with everything America does? Are all of her laws moral? Ethical? Just? Biblically correct? Fair? Consistent? No. So does that mean that as a Christian who has not renounced your American citizenship that your soul is in peril? Should being a citizen in a country that legalizes unborn baby killing, protects homosexual equality, allows racial inequity, and fosters economic discrepancy mean that Christians in another country say that you can't possibly be a justified, Bible believing Christian because you are part of such a national belief system? How foolish!

I clearly said that I don't agree with every Catholic or Protestant doctrine. But how does that translate into that every person who is Catholic necessarily then embracing a works plus grace view of justification as held officially by their church? Isn't that a dangerous viewpoint? Jesus was a product of, and remained a part of the Jewish system that killed Him as a false prophet. He still kept the sabbath, attended the synagogues, observed Jewish traditions such as the Passover, etc. They eventually kicked Him out of the synagogues, but He didn't quit them in spite of their legalistic, works-oriented theology.

Further, in my prior post I was talking, as clearly stated, about people who DO genuinely trust Christ (and thus are saved) but still are incomplete and often incorrect in all they understand that to mean. You are making faith and perfect theology mutually exclusive. Yet it was the Catholic church that for 1500 years worked to formulate many of the doctrines you are quoting and believe. And yes, there are other doctrines rejected by the Reformers. But are you implying that for 1500 years, since there was only one church and it was Roman Catholic, that there were no Christians in the church during that entire time? That is where your argument leads. As members of the only church in existence - the Catholic church - was every one in that 15 century period of church history lost because the church held some doctrines that mixed faith and works? I think not. And if there WERE true, Christ-trusting Christians in the Catholic Church in the first 1500 years, then why can't there be such Christians in the Catholic Church now? In spite of what the Catholic church officially espouses? (Same is true of Protestantism).

John Wesley brought spiritual and national revival to England, yet remained an Anglican all of his life? Is he lost because the Anglican church at that time had some serious doctrinal errors, also?

You seem to be confused about what the church is. There is only one church in the sense of the body of Christ. There were numerous churches as organizations, even in the New Testament. There was the church at Jerusalem. The church at Antioch. The church at Thessalonica. The church at Ephesus. The churches listed in Revelation 2,3. They all had problems. They all were working on their theology and doctrinal understandings. Most of of those churches had very faulty practices, prompting corrective letters from Paul, Peter, John, and yes, even Jesus Himself in Revelation 2,3 that at times were quite stern. Yet, while warned of ways they needed to repent of and even return to right practices and understandings, they were almost all commended for other ways in which the grace of God was at work within them - in other words, they were still Christians. They weren't written off. Rebuked, corrected, instructed, encouraged - yes. But not put into a "can't be a Christian because they belong to a church that has a faulty view of this or that" category.

Seems to me there is a subtle works basis in your rationale. Faith in Christ alone, through Scripture alone plus a perfect doctrinal belief system that allows for no margin for error in understanding.

I am not Catholic. But I just don't buy into your idea that because the Catholic church has a doctrine that mixes grace plus works, every Catholic priest or parishioner must then be lost for being part of that church. Justification comes, as you clearly say, by faith alone in Christ alone - not in Christ plus a correct church doctrinal system.

Do I accept every Catholic as a Christian? No. I don't accept every church going Protestant as a Christian, either. Or Anglican. But it's not my place to pull the tares from among the wheat, lest I inadvertently mistake a few stalks of immature wheat for tares. Jesus told me not to, because in uprooting tares, I damage and destroy the root systems of some delicate wheat. I fail to see how leaving tares alone to grow among wheat is rationalizing justification, or that in taking such a position I'm doing it at my peril, or doing a disservice to the lost, who do not know the way to God. I fail to see how obeying Christ to love friend and foe alike by leaving tares for God's angels to deal with at the harvest does the lost no good or comforts them with an approach that they will learn someday has cost them their souls.

And that is what I am doing. I'm not wavering or compromising what I believe the Bible teaches. But I am embracing all of it, not just some selective parts. And all of it includes leaving tares to God. Not my assignment. My assignment is to make disciples, love one another, pray for those who do or don't agree with me. Not condemn.

I commend you for a strong and correct view of justitication. But IMHO to use it as a tool to uproot tares among wheat does more disservice to the kingdom effort to reach lost people who look at us Christians and observe, "Behold how they slay one another."

The very justification you are espousing (and I espouse it , too) unleashes a grace from God that is far greater than I hear coming through your posts. When we trust Christ by faith alone, then doesn't God's grace even forgive us for doctrineal error? And only God can see what is truly trust and what is not. Jesus is fairly well qualified to lead His church, and purify it's doctrines. Let Him.

Arrowstinger

BUT, the doctrine of justification is very clear,

and any error is fatal.

Ringman - I agree completly. Our good works, whatever they may be, are like nothing.

That said - I would have a very difficult time believing that someone has accepted Christ as their Savior and that they habe been saved if the evidence (their works) is at odds with what they are saying.

I guess I agree with those who say that it's all semantics. The works won't save you. But they do make a compeling arguement as to whose side you are on.

As for our works being rags - I still think they are appreciated. When my 2 year old makes a crayola masterpiece for me, in a worldly sense it is worthless. But to me it is priceless. It is a demonstration of my child's love for me and his efforts to show that and make me happy. In that same sense, I think God appreciates our efforts in his name.