Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ask John Barsness Questions About "Cartridges and Bullets for Whitetails."

I'd like to thank John Barsness for his latest exclusive column for the Campfire, "Cartridges and Bullets for Whitetails." This is the place to ask John questions about the column.

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http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/November_2008.html

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http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/October_2008.html

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Thanks again, John, and Merry Christmas to all!

John,

Great article! It's about time someone threw it out there that not all whitetails are the same!!!

I remember growing up in western Maryland and killing 200 pound whitetail does with a 6mm Remington using 100 grain bullets, and always having plenty of gun. I now live in Georgia, where 200 pound bucks are extremely rare. I find it somewhat amusing at deer camp when I look around at the 30-06s, the 300 mags, and the occasional .338.

The 6mm now belongs to my son, and I carry a .260, using 120 grain bullets. Again, it's proven to be plenty of gun. Between me and my two sons, we usually hunt with one of the following: .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .257 Roberts, or .260 Remington. The freezer is full as I type this with three Georgia bucks (one each) and two of them dropped DRT (dead right there). I reload for all our rifles (the boys are learning!) and concur with all you've said about bullet selection and impact velocity. We've had great success with both Speer Hot-Cor and Remington Cor-Lokt in the Georgia woods where shots rarely exceed 100 yards. I try to load a little lighter for the boys to reduce recoil, which puts our impact velocities in the ranges you have stated.

While I understand that the scope of your article was cartridges and bullets, I'd also like to say that there is no substitute for an accurate shot, and that starts with the shooter. It's irresponsible, in my opinion, to take to the deer woods without having practiced shooting. Practicing does wonders for the shooter's confidence and makes ALL bullets better!

hyounker

John,

Thanks so much for the article.

Please provide a picture or diagram of the 'shoulder/spine shot'.

thanks

I'm only 25 so that makes me just a pup but I live in the southeast where we can kill lots of deer. I started with a 243 and when I could I used my uncle's 270 featherweight to be cool. Most all the deer I ever killed with either went down very fast if not right there. So I could be a "big boy" I got a 300 Mag featherweight when I was 14. I guess I've killed 10 or 15 with it and only one fell dead. The rest ran anywhere from 20 to 100 yards. Thank you for helping me to better understand what I've seen happen and did not really understand why.

Terrific article by JB. I'm glad for the important distinctions made as to regions and size of white-tailed deer.

I live in south-central Ontario, the Kawartha Lakes region, which is considered central Canada. But I grew up in the Maritime Provinces, New Brunswick to be exact, and I started hunting there and have hunted Nova Scotia as well. All deer, this far north, tend to carry heavy frames, muscle and thick hides. It's not unusual for a big buck to exceed 300 lbs, and some will reach 400. Most mature does will exceed 200 lbs. They are also more difficult to hunt in thick wooded and brush-filled areas once the rifle season is on because other hunters (bear, duck, grouse, moose, bow hunters, and hound hunters, etc.) have already made them very wary. Plus their numbers are much less than further south. The situation is much more in the hunters favor on private farm land, with the owners permission, but this is NOT rifle hunting, as only bows or shotguns are permitted.

All of that to explain why some of us use medium to big bores for whitetails. I personally favor 35's and 45's, notably a 35 Whelen, 350 Rem Mag or 45-70. We need to drop them where they are, regardless of angle and we rarely have the opportunity to wait for them to pose just so we can shoot them thru the shoulders, spine or heart. I've also found that the 300 Win Mag is a great tool for such scenarios. Using the 180gr Hornady Interloc at around 3000fps it's a veritable bomb at about 35 yds! There'll not be an exit wound but no blood trailing for 100 yds either!

I'm trying to develop a white-tail load for my 6.5x47L to be used in central arkansas and I'm curious if I could get your thoughts or recommendations on what a desirable bullet and velocity-at-impact combo would be for these moderate sized deer. In this environment I will generally be 100yds and in so I'm concerned about overcooking the load and having the bullet either explode at impact or shoot straight through without expanding.

Yeah, the deer get huge up in parts of Canada! I hunted Manitoba once, right after a very hard winter when deer were very scarce. I didn't shoot anything, but one of my companions killed a FORKHORN that field-dressed over 200. That was its first set of antlers.

The size of whitetails even varies pretty widely here in Montana. I have hunted areas where a mature buck field-dresses around 150-160, and others where one field-dressing 200 isn't uncommon.

Savage 99,

Sorry I missed your post. There really isn't any need to post a photo or drawing. Just find a photo of a whitetail (or mule deer, elk, caribou, impala, etc.) standing broadside and put a ruler on the chest, with the edge right up the middle of the front leg. Measure the depth of the chest, then put a dot 2/3 of the way up from the bottom of the chest. That's the place. A bullet there will go through the shoulderblade and into the spine. The deer will go straight down.

Any advice as to what lead-free bullets might work well on smallish deer, especially if one wishes to avoid bone?

It seems to me that monometals are all designed purely for great penetration with adequate expansion; however, this does not make them a quick deer killer. Are any of the manufacturers going to make a lead-free deer bullet (wide expansion)?

I've had extremely quick kills with TSX on Deer and Antelope without hitting bone. When I say quick I mean they "dropped in their tracks"


TSX bullets open extremely fast without hitting bone

I shot a few whiteys with TSX's and have been less than impressed YMMV..

Why, I'm not surprissed that you weren't impressed. Bullets on game are like Real Estate location, location, location

John,

Thanks for your article, great information. Where I hunt the most is in the steep North Carolina mountains where the woods are thick, a long shot would be 85 yards and a mature whitetail buck might weigh 100 lbs . I recently put together a Ruger 77 MKII RSI with an 18" barrel in .308 wearing a Weaver VX 1-3 purposefully for these conditions. I handload 150 gr. Sierra ProHunters with IMR-3031 to a chronographed MV of +/- 2,350 fps. This is a reduced load that is very accurate, pleasant to shoot and with a lot less muzzle blast from the short barrel. At this MV, according to software, the velocity would be above 2000+ fps out to 150 yds. I have never shot a deer with this load, however, and my question is simply, can I safely assume that expansion and penetration with softer bullets will be up to the task if I limit shots to inside 150 yards? I practice frequently with this rifle and load, but have second-guessed whether I should re-zero and use a more powerful load when hunting?

A terrific article you wrote in the March 2004 Rifle magazine entitled "Recoilless Deer Rifles" (which I refer to everytime I reach for my .30-06 during deer season) inspired me to seek out a sensible rig and load that better fits the conditions and game where I hunt the most.

Thanks for any thoughts,
NCBullshooter

DakotaDeer,

If I may butt in, I've used TSX's on three Dakota deer out of a 6mm Rem so far, none went more than 30 yards. They were smallish deer, I usually draw antlerless (just lucky I guess), shot through the ribs at out to 150 yards. About the same results as when I used Gamekings. I used to use a .30-'06 but I like the other rifle better and the outcome is the same.

I did draw any deer last year, a dandy buck appeared at 100 yards or so, and I discovered my scope suffered a catastrophic failure sometime between then and the last shot at the range. Literally could not hit the broad side of a barn at 60 yards. Yeah, really lucky! (Nikon replaced promptly)

You expressed your opinion on the TSX. Nothing more nothing less.

BWalker expressed his opinion on TSX. Nothing more nothing less.

The above comment is classic bait.

Since you love to turn every thread involving a TSX into a pissing match, do it elsewhere and not turn JB article's about deer and deer bullets into the same thing.

You need to realize that folks can have different opinions and ways to do things. If someone doesn't like a TSX and wants to use something else even if you firmly believe they are wrong, get over it and move on.

I respectfully submit the above approach would probably be a good thing for you to do on this thread.

YMMV...

My question is, are there oddities from time to time in bullets. Ill explain. I shot an 8pt yesterday at right under 100yds. I was using a Abolt/270WSM with 130gr Accubond. Hit was broadside lung. No bone hit going in. No exit. Inside a total wreck. Did not find the bullet. This is the first time using this bullet in the 270WSM. Ive used it numerous times in 30-06 with complete pass thru's at ranges to 225 yds. I know the 270WSM packs more speed. But in my mind it acted more like a Ballistic Tip than an Accubond. Just a fluke? Maybe I shouldnt be asking in this thread, but with this article I thought to ask here. Is there chances of having one bullet of the same make act different than another? Lot differences maybe? Thank you.

NCBullshooter,

Your load should work fine. In fact a lot of great woods cartridges have muzzle velocities in that range--the 150-grain .30-30, 180 .300 Savage, 286 9.3x62--and they do great work without shooting up a lot of meat.

DakotaDeer,

Any of the monometals will work. I have generally gotten quicker kills from the TSX when used in smaller diameters when it's driven pretty fast, 3000 fps or better. Another way to make the hole bigger is to use a bigger rifle, something above .30 like a .33 or .35.

The Nosler E-Tip is designed to open up a little wider than the TSX, but I haven't seen enough small animals taken with it to come ot a firm conclusion yet. I like to see at least a dozen animals taken with a given bullet (and preferably more). The other trouble is evaluating the hit. Some people shoot a handful of deer with a certain bullet, but only a couple were actually broadside lung shots. Other clipped the bottom of the spine, perhaps. But I have seen several animals the size of small deer taken with E-Tips, including the 90-grain 6mm, and the 150- and 180-grain .30's, and the results were good on those animals. But I still want to see some more animals taken with them before coming to even a partial conclusion about them. (I do KNOW they work very well on big animals, though, weighing from 400 pounds up to 800 or so.)

I don't know anything about the new Hornady monometal, except the press releases from Hornady. There are some monometals out there designed to LOSE the petals, which in theory at least would help them kill quicker on smaller animals, but I haven't seen enough game taken with them to come to any firm conclusions there either. And they might not sell even if they did work, with the mania for high retained weight these days.

John,

Thanks for your comment, it put my mind to rest. And thanks for the time and experience you devote to this forum.

NCBullshooter

You're welcome!