Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Does bullet weight matter when using Berger's on Big Game?

Does bullet weight matter when using Berger's on Big Game?

Does it really matter if you use a 6.5/130 or 30/190 on big game such as elk? The bullet performs the same regardless of weight or does it? Since they both open up the same after 2 to 3 inches of penetration, is the extra weight of the 30 caliber going to have a more or better effect on big game animals?

IF no real effect takes place does using a lower weight Berger become an equalizer ?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Thanks,

That's a good question. In the 30 or so big game animals I've seen shot with the Bergers, it didn't seem to make much difference. On our trip to New Zealand we killed 4 big red stags, about the size of cow elk. One was killed with a .300 Winchester and a 185, one with a .264 and a 140, one with a .30-06 and a 185, and one with a .257 Roberts and a 115. All were one-shot kills, as I recall, and the only hit that might be called marginal was from the .257, which entered the right side of the rib cage pretty far back, through the liver. The bullet shredded the liver and the rear of the left lung, and the stag went maybe 15 feet and fell over dead. Range was about 200 yards.

So I dunno, but there didn't seem to be much difference in performance on any of the other animals either, at ranges out to 550 yards or so. The bigger bullets create more "shrapnel," of course, but the smaller ones seem to create more than enough to do the job.

Thank you JB,

Sure has me wondering.

Yeah, me too!

C'mon, you can't trust actual experience. If you look at the ballistics, you will clearly see that you either need a slow heavy bullet or a really fast light bullet, or maybe a mid-weight mid-velocity bullet. Get out your calculator, figure out the "Knock out" value, foot pounds of energy, trajectory, etc. Weight doesn't matter as long as it exits....or doesn't exit and dumps all the energy into the animal.

It's all so clear if you work up the numbers, and you can sit at your computer while you're doing it. You don't have to get cold or hot or wet or anything.

Tests on animals from New Zealand can't be applicable to North American animals. They're in another hemisphere for heaven's sake, the Coriolis effect must invalidate them.

Yeah, I did notice that the NZ animals tended to flop the opposite way they do in North America.

These questions may have been addressed elsewhere but how/or do the Bergers differ from Sierra's Matchkings in performance on game. I have killed a lot of stuff with Matchkings.
JB..

Did any of those Bergers hit any major bone? And if so how did it perform? Can you shoot through an elk shoulder with one of them or do they blow up on the bone and not continue on through. I wouldn't purposely shoot at an elk shoulder with a Matchking.

I have also used the Sierra Hollowpoint Gsmeking 7 mm 160 gr. on lots of hogs. Works well and is very accurate. How do the Bergres compare?

Thanks, JB for the answer.

The Berger VLD's differ in two ways from MatchKings: They have an even longer ogive, and the lead core is 0.5% antimony, while the Sierras are 3% antimony. From the little I know about MatchKings, the Bergers expand even more violently. They also don't start expanding until they get inside 1.5" to 2". All the other bullets on the market start expanding as soon as they start into tissue.

I have no idea if a Berger would penetrate an elk shoulder. I did shoot some goats (about the size of southern whitetails) in the shoulder in NZ and the Bergers went on through the near shoulder.

But their specialty is killing animals suddenly with plain old lung shots.

yeah but wouldn't ballistic tips do the same thing?? after having trouble putting an elk down and having alot harder time than need be getting it out and up a steep hill after the kill, all the elk I shoot from now on I am going to put a mono metal bullet through the shoulder to anchor it on the spot, and fire a second shot if necessary.

as for matchkings, matchkings have a larger HP in the nose, bergers is about as small as they can get it, this is likely what gives the delayed opening up, I tried using bergers on coyotes, the match bullet with a small hole in the nose, this was a 50 grn .224 match bullet, I got the 2" or penetration, however at the 2" point they would blow up only going 2 or 3" into the coyote and leave a large entrance wound, this was even on some long shots of about 300 yards where a considerable amount of speed was bleed off.

The differences between a Ballistic Tip and a Berger VLD are:

1) The Berger doesn't start to expand right away. A Ballistic Tip does.

2) The Berger generally comes complete apart when it expands, and a Ballistic Tip will retain some weight, generally about 50-60% depending on the particular model.

Because they come apart so violently, Berger VLD's kill with lung shots quicker, on average, than any other bullet I've ever seen.

You weren't using VLD's on the coyotes. You were using Berger Varmint bullets, which are designed to expand immediately, even on prairie dogs. That is why you were getting such a huge entrance wound and poor penetration.

JB,

Do you have any scoop on .224" VLD performance on deer size game? I have a 9" twist 223 that really likes the 75 grain VLD. I think Berger used to list those in the game bullet section of their website, but I don't see them there anymore.

mathman

This sounds to me as though the Bergers are meant for deliberate shots at broadside animals, but would not be the best if you were hunting animals that would need more penetration from bad angles. I could be wrong however. Good broadsides are how I prefer to use them, but have only had the opurtunuity to shoot one antelope with them and it killed quicker than anything else I have tried.

Have you had bad angle shot that worked or have all been good broadside shots?

mathman,

No, I don't have any experience with any .224 VLD. The smallest VLD I do have any experience with is the 115 .25.

Just a Hunter,

Actually, the VLD's aren't "meant" for hunting. Some people decided to try them and they worked!

No, they're not a bullet for really bad angles, since they pretty much go to pieces inside animals. I have shot through some shoulders with them (on a 120-poiund feral goat) but VLD's do their best work on pretty much broadside shots, where in my experience they are about the quickest killers out there.

Maybe 2/3 of the animals we shot in New Zealand during "field testing" were feral goats. These are reputed to be among the toughest animals of their size among anybody who's shot them. In fact, the NZ outfitter took one look at the VLD's in our handloads and said we had chosen exactly the wrong bullet, that what we needed was a big, round-nosed bullet with lots of exposed lead. But after two days of shooting he was saying the VLD was the best goat bullet he'd ever seen.

So, safe to say they are a limited application bullet rather than an all-around? or, not really limited because they can penetrate bone from most reasonable angles that a thinking hunter would use?

Does a bigger caliber, heavier VLD give more margin for error, or simply create a bigger mess?

Yeah, that would be a pretty fair assessment. I wouldn't use one for hunting in timber, say, where the shot angle might be pretty steep. They're more of any open-country bullet.

As noted earlier in this thread, I still haven't made up my mind about how bullet weight affects their performance. The worst shot placement on the biggest red stag in NZ was made with the smallest bullet used, but it killed him very quickly. He was in the open, but thick timber was only 75 yards away, and with the same shot placement with a lot of so-called premium bullets I am reasonably certain he would have made it into the trees.

The bigger bullets really do a job on their insides, though. I shot my stag across a canyon at 250 yards, in his bed. I had a very steady rest (prone over a daypack) and put the bullet right into his heart. It literally turned the heart into a flap of tissue about a foot long. This was with a 185 VLD from a .30-06, started at about 2800 with 58.0 grains of Ramshot Hunter. The stag never even got to his feet, just tipped his head back (I assume because he was also drowning in his own blood) and then rolled down the mountain a ways.

The bullet, by the way, did not fully penetrate the chest, even from broadside. In fact all we found were a few fragments of lead and jacket stuck on the inside of the ribs on the far side. But it killed him darn quickly! I know that quite a few people apparently believe that without complete bullet penetration animals aren't dead, but....

actually just to be clear I was using the match bullet, berger makes 2 styles of bullets in the 50 grn weight one is a varmint bullet the other is a match bullet, the match bullet has a considerably smaller hole in its nose than say even a match king. anyways I was hoping on similar performance to the VLD I know its not a VLD bullet but it operates on the same principle small nose hole delayed expansion. sometimes they did blow up in the animal. I am have a 1 hole load with a 130 vld 270 win, load, I think I am going to save it for deer.

Thanks for the clarification. The VLD's do act differently, apparently because the very long ogive tends to "needle" in before expanding, instead of starting to expand right away, as you found with the 50-grain match .224. (Actually they even call the varmint model a "match varmint.)

All the Bergers, as far as I know, use very soft cores, one reason you got such rapid expansion even with the match bullet.

Mule Deer,

Have you seen the DVD "Beyond Belief" on long range shooting? It was put out couple? years ago by the guys on the 'Best of the West' hunting show. They take broadside, high shoulder shots using mainly the 168 VLD in 7RM, on coyotes, pronghorn, deer, caribou, and elk. The kill shots are impressive, almost all drop in their tracks. I know there's editing involved,and they're promoting themselves, but it's still amazing how fast the animals go down.

P.S. - I've been lurkin' here about a year, but never posted before. This site is great!

Yeah, I have the DVD and have watched it more than once. They are mostly taking spine shots, a smart tactic because a little wind drift (which is usually--not always--horizontal) will still result in a hit. That's the nice thing about a spine hit: it makes animals drop.