Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire Pentecostal Apostasy

God has never placed a premium on ignorance. Moses and Paul had the best educations before they were called into the positions they had. The twelve disciples were discipled 3 years by the greatest teacher ever to live before they were cut loose to do ministry. They would have had the education of many Doctorates with what they learned following Christ here on earth. If you actually looked at the skills involved in being a commercial fisherman, you would immediately see why God chose to call and TRAIN fisherman to found His church. Dwight Moody started a college because he knew the importance of education.

At Pentecost, it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter, and the Lord saved those 3000 people.

Master_Bonzi, Well stated. Apostle Peter, speaking by the Holy Spirit says it this way:

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest , being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from you own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Chtrist. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity."

So when you know everything there is to know about "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"* all glory goes to Him.



*Titus 2:13

How's it going Bonzi,

You said:



Hmmmm. Cute saying, but I am not sure that is entirely true. Ignorance and stupidity are entirely different things, of course. God can't use stupidity because it is often akin to rebellion, and we see stupid moves of Peter or David for example, being chastised. But ignorance just means a lack of knowledge about some certain topic. We often misuse the word, just as we do so much of our language. Certainly God used many people who knew nothing about what He had in mind for them before they started out with Him. So from that respect many were truly ignorant about being a prophet, king, disciple, deliverer, warrior, etc. They may have been educated or accomplished in another area but ignorant for what God had in store for them. However, more often than not they were very ordinary.

Certainly many were very ignorant regarding the God they thought they knew and the God they grew to know in His directed service. Paul is a prime example. He certainly was ignorant to the true nature of the God. He felt he was blameless in front of God when in fact Saul was persecuting the very God he wished to serve.

The underlying aspect of most of the "great men of God: apostles, prophets, kings, etc", is that they are often a very unlikely choice, from man�s perspective or a common sense perspective, to carry out God's mission. I could give example after example but it would just sound like Sunday school and I think we all know the stories. And certainly the educations of the few God used who were educated, benefited His purpose. The same is true of abilities: I give you a boy and his sling. But educated or not, skilled with a sling or not, they were all unlikely for His mission.

In every case, it was not the man accomplishing the mission, but God and the Holy Spirit working through the man. This was a preamble in the OT to how the Holy Spirit is to work through each of us. Of course a critical aspect that each of these men had to possess, was a heart that was soft towards God. Even though Paul was a Pharisee among Pharisees, I believe Saul's intent even when prosecuting the church was to honor God: Saul just didn't know who God truly was because his religion had obscured Him. Once Paul understood the true God, he set about to bring salvation to whom........the gentile!

Now how�s that for a switch from how a committee would have laid this out! Paul, who as a Jew of Jews would have never entered a gentile�s home, is now baptizing and eating with them. That wasn't supposed to happen in those days! And Peter, the rough fisherman (oh yeah, you got him down as a high tech small business owner: nothing against fishermen present, past or future, but those who fished in Jesus day were often honest but rough men. I see nothing in the gospels to indicate Jesus disciples were anything but very common and ordinary which would have meant low status and little if any education,) who would have fit in very well with the pagan gentiles, is now preaching to the learned Jews.

Now that's how God orchestrates his choir: He takes everyone who can't sing a lick and produces a symphony of beauty beyond compare! What did He make the heavens and earth out of: nothing, what did He make man out of: dirt; how did He give us a Savior: from a young unwed mother. At every turn in the road He wants us to be sure that He was there. We know He was because nothing would have come of any of these people in and of themselves, so He had to be involved mightily.

Certainly Jesus was the greatest teacher ever. Period. And the disciples benefited greatly from His guidance and tutelage. They were not men of renown. They did not possess any aspect of greatness, apart from Him. He told the world about Him through men that no one would have listened to about much of anything, except now these men had a massive anointing of the Holy Spirit. For men such as these to convince the world that God became man, died and lives again forever so we can live with Him forever, the evidence says God all over it. Had He used men of renown or greatness, it would have diminished the accomplishment. Also, keep in mind that Jesus specifically commanded the disciples to wait on the Holy Spirit before they tried to accomplish anything. As good as He could teach them Himself, He knew they still needed God in the form of the Holy Spirit to accomplish what lay before them.

Education is important. I have one. It may keep me employed: God will absolutely keep me employed. Unfortunately for many it tends to bring more separation from the Lord than closeness. Not for all, but for many it swells heads and allows one to exalt personal accomplishments and leave God off the program.

I wish I had gone to a bible college. I am not belittling it. There is more to an anointed life and ministry than Bible College. I doubt if the next (maybe last) great revival, I long for, will come from a professor of anything but one who professes only Jesus and His magnanimous Love.

Wow!

Now I understand what it must have been like for Joseph Smith before he was directed to re-establish Christ's Church.

Get a grip.

RickyD, Apparently you don't understand the definition of stupid. Check your dictionary and discover it means an inability to learn. The sinful actions of Bible Heros were not stupid. They learned.

I kind of get what your point is, but I'm not sure of why you are making it. Would you like as Big Stick calls us to become the "mindless herd?" Should the education of our God given minds be left to the athiests? I have heard many ministers give your song and dance to make people feel comfortable in ignorance and to keep following unquestioning, but I don't buy it.

Try directing a ministry or doing anything in ministry. You will find how valuable an education is that extends beyond the Bible and into many other areas.

Come up to alaska and check out how rough and uneducated these commercial fisherman are. Not only will they take you to school on most subjects, but they have the most amazing work ethic I have ever seen. They are a different breed, there is no doubt. Christ looked beyond the external appearence of a rugged fisherman and saw the character, dedication, and potential within them. And then He spent 3 years training them so they wouldn't be ignorant.

Hi Ringman,

Thanks for your comments. Sure, I understand the meanings of stupid.

The word "stupid" can be either a noun or an adjective. The noun means a person who is not very bright, which is similar to the definition you gave. These folks have a lack of cognitive mental abilities. They will never (without Devine intervention) achieve intellectually what others can.

The adjective means something we do which is marked by a lack of intellectual acuity. Related words for this usage are blockheaded, wrongheaded, irresponsible, etc. We all do things from time to time that if we had just applied a bit of thought to before hand we would not have done at all or would have done differently. We knew better. We are not stupid but the thing we did or the way we reacted was stupid. Often, because we "shot from the hip, and didn�t use the knowledge we had at our disposal. To me that is stupid. To disregard what we know and act or do something contrary to that knowledge is also rebellious. If you don't like that usage, OK, but in normal conversations with folks these last 50 years, it's the one everyone in this part of the country accepts.

So yes, I believe the stuff the heroes of the bible did that drew God's reproving, was stupid for them to have done. Sure they (most of them) learned from their actions. So do the rest of us, usually. Just because we learn from a stupid mistake doesn't mean the mistake wasn't stupid in the first place. The fact that we can learn from our stupid mistakes, proves we weren't stupid (noun) people to start with.

OK, so show me where I don't have a grip.

I only post here to enjoy (ha ha, funny joke!) a discourse of ideas. I have many. Some may not be well conceived, but until I can be persuaded differently, I will hold them. While I'm not exactly sure where your Joseph Smith comment is coming from, I take it that you are saying I am a heretic. If so, that's quite harsh and not at all true.

So are you a �bomb thrower" as Bill O'Reilly terms the hit and run tactics of those unwilling or ill prepared to debate rationally? Do you have longings for the Inquisition, or more witchcraft trials, perhaps.....ha ha!

The point I made was to show why I agreed with what Shootist posted. You contested my agreement with that post so I attempted to give you a more expansive discussion of where I was coming from.

Hey, don't try to disagree with what we already agree on. I am not demeaning education. I said it was important and I had one. I'm a CPA. That takes lots of education and lots of continuing education. I am a life long learner. But I totally stand on my contention that education often swells some heads. I'm sure it does mine sometimes, too. Formal education is important but it is not an end all, particularly in a successful ministry. That was my understanding of Shootist's original point.

If you believe that Peter's background as a fisherman prepared him to contend with the Sanhedrin and other Jews of significance, OK. I don't. I believe the Holy
Spirit gave him that ability. Why else would the Lord tell them to tarry (Luke 24:49) in Jeruselm until the comforter came?

And I can come to Alaska most anytime you can have me! ha ha!

Anyway, all the best in your ministry.

RickyD,



No bomb thrower, just an observer of some interest and a I am a heretic (in the original, constructive denotation of the word). Also, I largely agree with your assessment of rampant apostasy.



It was interesting as an outsider to experience this dialog and wonder what the end result might be.



Good luck with your quest for additonal enlightenment.



Middle English heretik, from Old French heretique, from Late Latin haereticus, from Greek hairetikos, able to choose, from hairetos, chosen, from haireisthai, to choose. See heresy.]

The heretic chooses a part but rejects the whole thereby wedding himself to a lie.

For instance the Orthodox doctrine is the full divinity and humanity of Christ, and yet the early Arians only recognized his "exalted" humanity.

They chose a part but not the whole.

Are you jesting in calling yourself a heretic?

All in all though, an interesting post!

Post again!!

SU35:

"I did read dixie freedoms post, I disagree with it. I dont like what I see with a small few and money but to lump the whole
and call them apostate is just ridiculous to say the least. "


SU35... Please believe me when I say I am for the Pentecostal Movement in a big way and I wish I could shout an amen to the quote above, where you say it is a small few who are apostate.

But let me be clear, I do not fault the Pentecostals or Charismatics for emphasizing the work of the Holy Spirit. Not at all. The Holy Spirit, He is "Very and Eternal God" Amen and Amen. And if He is the same Holy Spirit Who came in power and great glory in the upper room then He can bestow the same gifts as He did then. I see no credible scriptural defense of cessationism.

But...

From my perspective on the Pent/Charis movement the apostasy appears to me to be very wide spread. For instance

TBN
A worldwide television "ministry" that does in fact have many supporters within the AG. The absurd and disgraceful antics of TBN are not occuring in a corner but out there for all the world to see... and it always ends up in a simony sale of grace at the end of the program. Horrible!

The Church of God Cleveland Tenn actually invited Rod Parsley to speak to a convention of their ministers. This is a documented fact. The Pentecostal COG has historic ties to Wesley but Parsley and Wesley are miles and miles and miles apart! Read the Works of Wesley and compare to Parsley's simony... This is a mainline Pent denomination. Apostasy at the highest levels.

The AG... Oh my! Ordaining Benny Hinn after all the scandals in the late 80's???? Where was the mourning and weeping and torn shirts and sackcloth and ashes? The Brownsville big Three got extremely rich and then it all broke up in a power struggle over money and mailing lists and church authority. Horrible! This is the AG, a mainline Pent denomination.

Then there is this horrid wicked evil rock and roll "stuff" that is all throughout the Pentecostal churches and the harders worser stuff at the youth retreats. Satanic! Apostasy!

And the simony... all the time almost everywhere with tithe or die legalism for the icing on the Pelagian cake.

I don't mean to be mean spirited but the Pentecostal movment desperately needs to get back to the simple truth of justification by faith alone apart from the works of the law. That is the root problem. Claiming the presence and power of the Spirit, in many cases they are devoid of the Spirit of Truth and are inhabited with a counterfiet article. SCARY!

The barking dog revival, or laughing revival fad that swept through some five years ago is proof positive of the counterfiet at work.

We could go on and on and on.

But don't get mad at me. I pray for redemption and reform, I am not for cutting the child in two...