Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ask John Barsness Questions About "Seating Bullets Straightly."

I'll try to answer two questions in one.

"Run-out" is the amount the bullet is seated out of round from the center of the case. This is exprssed in thousandths of an inch (.001", .002" etc.).

Generally I measure run-out about 1/10th (or maybe 1/8th) of an inch in front of the case mouth. This is simply because my first concetricity tool was an RCBS and that's what the directions advised.

Yeah, 000" is really good! But for varmint loads I generally try for .002" and for big game loads (except for special purposes) around .005". Even when loads are perfect (.000") in such rifles, the accuracy doesn't seem to get any better, because of other factors, including chamber and bullet quality.

Cartridges made with new brass often have iffy runout figures. This is because the area of the case body just below the shoulder isn't usually perfect and warp free until it's fired and sized one time, and that's right where the case rides on one of the support points of the runout checking fixture.

On a related note, I just picked up a Redding neck sizer die for my 338-06. It has a part similar to an expander ball on the decapping rod but it does not appear to contact the inside of the neck at all (much smaller than .338). I'm used to using an RCBS with the expander ball so this is different. I think I'll see what happens if I remove the 'size button' and see if the final dimensions are any different than with it.

John; I took your advise and bought a Redding T7 press. I just loaded some once fired Remington 30-06 brass that I weighed, reamed the primer pockets, deburred the flash hole, trimmed to length, and turned the necks to clean them up. I used a Redding full length sizing die and of 60 cases, 35 had less than .001- under .002 runout on the case neck, 16 were .002 and 5 were .003 at the case neck. I was happy as hell. I seated 10 Sierra 175Mk's and checked bullet runout. None were at .001 most were in the 003 to .005 range. I used the standard Redding seater die. All was good until I seated the bullets. Would a Lee seating die be better, or what would you recommend? I am going to use this load in an old 1903 Springfield as issue rifle that has shown excellent accuracy. I also used a Sinclair longer taper inside neck reamer. Thanks, Luke

Actually, that's pretty good runout for brass loaded with a standard full-length 2-die set.

Before going further, I would first shoot the ammo you loaded and see how it does. One trick is to mark the rounds with the least run-out and see if they actually shoot differently than the loads with max run-out. My bet would be that you won't see much difference in the old '03, but you never know.

luke, if you aren't happy with the results on the target you could allways try a Forster Ultra seater, or the Redding Comp seater and see if you get some improvement.

John,

You mentioned that you have holes drilled in your bench to straighten rounds out. How exactly do you know which way to tweak them?

Thanks for another fine article!

Scott, I'm using their .308 sizer. As soon as I get a gauge I will tell you how they are.

Results on the target so far are excellent, shooting 175gr SMK's out of a box stock Savage 10FP. Around .4 MOA.

I would think if my necks were getting tweaked badly I'd be seeing it on the target.

I plan on getting Sinclair's gauge when I have the cash.

I look at the gauge when testing for run-out and find the "high" side. Then I put the bullet in the appropriate hole with the high side up, and gently push the case down.

I was thinking that the bullet tip may be contacting the bottom of the seater plug and tipping the bullet slightly. Maybe if I had a relief hole in the die perfectly centered in a lathe it would help. Anyone ever try this, or am I wasting my time. The 175Mk is very pointed as you know.Thanks for your replies. Luke

Don't bother! I went downstairs and took the seater plug out and stuffed a bullet into it, and that is not the problem. There' plenty of room. Brain fart.

I think it's a fine idea. You may also be able to recontour the inside of the seater plug for a perfect fit.

A little while back I decided to try some Berger VLD bullets is my 223. I actually remembered to check their compatibility with the seating plug in my die before I was ready to seat bullets. Their points hit before the ogive made contact in the proper part of the seating plug. I contacted the die manufacturer about getting a different plug or getting mine modified and was not pleased with the price quote I got.

The next time I went to Cabelas I had a sample VLD in my pocket. I tried it for seating plug compatibility in a couple of die sets and found one where it fit great. So I wound up with a whole die set for about the same money as the other seating plug modification would have cost, and I paid no shipping charge either.


Hey, you got your other post in while I was typing!

I noticed on my new seating die that the seater plug had very sharp little ridges on the inside and they would leave rings around the bullet. I also feel that it had the potential to grab the bullet and seat it at an angle (ever so slight) vice allowing it to slide to the center of the cone naturally. I took a dremel and some JB bore paste and polished the inside. I plan to load some toinght and see if makes any difference.

After loading a few rounds I think cleaning up the inside of the seating plug helped a bit. Actual numbers are not great (.003-.006), but they are more consistent with most being .003 or .004. Just fine for my purposes. At least is does not leave little rings around the bullet anymore.

I polished on the inside of mine too, but have not had a chance to try it. I'll let you know how it works.

John, I got an order today from Grafs and in the package was a 2009 New Products DVD from Hornady where they showed their new tool. Not a lot of detail, but it DOES look interesting, provided its easy to use. They claimed test versions of the tools have been in the hands of various testers for around two years.

To me it looks like it has some kind of rod that pushes on the projo after you've identified the 'high' side. Dunno if it can measure neck runout thou, do you know?

Anyone know anybody at Hornady? Cough..cough..cough....

As I said earlier, I have just seen the press release. I do know people at Hornady but didn't go to the SHOT Show this year (it's going on right now) so have not looked at the tool itself.

Since the subject of ADJUSTING loaded ammo keeps coming up....

To me you are oblonging the neck, and possibly loosening the grip of the neck to the bullet doing this adjustment. I would rather see something along these lines stated:

If the bullet is out .007", you can safely adjust it a few thousandths to .005 runout ( acceptable by most writings for everything but a bench rest gun)
If the bullet is more than .007 out ( ie .0035 off centerline) then either shoot the round NOT for group, or pull the round down and determine why it isn't within the average of your other ammo???? IE experiment with it to learn why it is out of acceptable tolerance, and possibly toss it...??

Basically, my observation is, especially on .007" or more out of tolerance rounds to get them within specs ( by bending the neck)may not be the best idea. Anyone else adjust ammo and see neck oblonged from the bending of the case neck? Maybe I am wrong, and the neck is soft enough and it really just bends below the bullet, and you are not, like I think, are oblonging the necks. I suerly don't have the answer, as I haven't adjusted more than 1 round in my life, but I don't think it is something you should do every day to resolve POOR RELOADING TECNIQUE.....

Sorry for rambling away, I would like to see John's or Hornady's take on my thoughts. I am sure they have more experience than I doing this, and I could be all wet.

Bench rest shooters typically start with 50 rounds of brass and after neck turning and all of the sorting they do may end up with only 5 or 10 GOOD pieces of brass, tossing the rest for accuracy reasons. I know this is the far extreme of the normal discussion here, and John has shared just a little of what he does to make good ammo, but sometimes readers aren't as experienced as others and little details are helpful in expediting the learning curve. I reloaded for 20+ years before even knowing bullet runout is an important thing to consider, but I am not a benchrest shooter, and they learn at the start runout is an issue that needs to be resolved and they use tecnique, not adjust rounds after being loaded poorly.

Sorry for bouncing around. I have my grandson pulling my finger to go play between sentences.

Take everything John says and do research to add to his excellent words, and take everything I have said with a grain of salt and find other, knowledgable writers information to heart.

Hope this helps someone get a start in researching this important subject.

Allen

An excellent point, and no, I generally don't try to straighten ammo that is over .007" out, as it does tend to loosen the bullets.

That's if my goal is .005". Of course if my goal is .002", then I don't try to straighten any round over .004".

And I also do tend to toss any case that consistently won't size correctly. These are generally those that are heavier-walled on one side than the other, and selecting cases for consistent neck thickness usually eliminates them. This is one reason I prefer to cull cases rather than turn necks. If neck thickness is so lopsided that the neck needs turning, then I figure the case is defective.

Along with dies that size brass straightly, a longer taper chamfer, and a good seating die, this tends to eliminate most of the factors that create crooked bullets. So I don't encounter many rounds so far off that straightening the bullet causes neck problems.

I've found that if the case necks vary .001" or less and the neck is sized down so that the ID is around .002" less than the expander ball, so that the ball doesn't have to move the necks much, I get straight loaded rounds. This is accomplished with Forster dies custom honed (about $20 round trip) to fit the brass.

I have a set of 1966 300 wby dies that I am borrowing from my FIL. He said he won't be reloading for his Wby anytime soon, at 74, as he has 100 rds loaded from a few years ago. I dislike using others dies, but free loaners is cool.

I loaded some ammo, and found I could get from .001" to .006" Bullet runout by marking/ rotating the brass 1/4 turn and resizing 4 or 5 turns, all checked w/ a sinclair type runout indicator tool I made. I decided to call the Mfg's rep, and she recommended I remove the stem and just FL resize and see if the brass comes out decent. I put a previously resized fired round from my gun that had .004" runout in it this morning, and it came out .008" runout. This indicates the die is cut poorly, as she reminded me when she suggest I do this before driving the die to them. I did this as my FIL is driving up there after the vendor returns from the Shot show, to see an old friend at their store. These dies, with his permission, will be swapped for another die set.

Interesting note, I called the son of the Mfg's founder, and he said this happens, it isn't the first set of returned out of spec dies. I suspect many, like my FIL and I prior to making the runout tool, load and fire ammo with large runout w/o even knowing better. They may even get good groups with it, and I don't have the experience to say if better ammo would give better groups......

Hope this helps someone.

Allen

Thank you for adding the information John/ Mule Deer.