Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Interesting ethics issue

Hey JJ why don't you just chase them, then put the dogs on leashes and drag them away!! Many, many, many, coon hunters around here do that. I know some who have never actually killed a coon, they just chase them around the woods at night and then pull the dogs away when they tree the coon. They like the houndsmanship as much as you do!! They say it's a rush! I have never coonhunted so cannot speak from experience though. Mike

JJHack<BR>I see your dilema, and even though you had nothing to do with the hunt, I would tell the guy to come and get his lion because I would not want to participate in anything unethical. I recall that Fred Bear the famous bow hunter made many attempts to arrow a polar bear that would qualify for P&Y. The problem was that every time he stuck one it would charge immediately and have to be stopped with a rifle. I believe it took him at least 5 or 6 tries to be successful. Given this example of ethics and integrity I don't think the lion hunter has a leg to stand on. Also I agree that his guide is an idiot to try and have the trophy submitted, and that some people lose sight of the meaningful reasons to hunt in their quest for scores and trophies.<BR>regards....northern hunter

JJ, I agree with the person that said let the hunter make the call, with the understanding that you will report ALL your findings. Good luck sorting this out.

JJ - Let's set aside the fact of the lion being treed. I share your feelings on that whole matter, but it's not central here. <P>Let's say it's a mule deer we're talking about, and the hunter (or a guide) walks up to the animal and finishes it from 10 feet away with a pistol shot to the back of the head. <P>Disqualified, right?<P>OK, now the finishing shot is from 20 yards with a rifle. <P>Disqualified, right?<P>Now it's from 70 yards...<P>Disqualified, right?<P>Now it's from 100 yards...<BR>Now, from 150 yards...<P>We see clearly why bullets can't be involved at all with a P&Y kill, and I know you agree with that, but it helps to take it out of the context of a treed lion. <P>We might disagree with a particular category of trophy, knowing that treed animals are on the list. But what does it do to the general standards of fair chase that P&Y and B&C try very hard to maintain, if we knowingly let one "slip by," just because it's in a category we don't think deserves to be recognized anyway? <P>Those organizations don't have enough manpower to be on the scene for every potentially qualifying kill - they rely upon the integrity of the hunter, first, and others who are in a position to validate - or in this case, invalidate - animals submitted for the book. <P>If you let this go by, then you're saying it's OK for others to bend the rules in all of the other categories where treeing an animal has nothing to do with it. And you're saying that all of the men and women who often work their rear ends off in the pursuit of a legitimate fair chase trophy are just an anachronism. That's a sad day for hunting, isn't it?<P>Tell this butthole you care about hunting - obviously, you do - and if he tries to submit this animal for P&Y scoring, you're going to send the organization proof the animal was taken in part with a gun. He can't sue you for defamation if you have proof that what you're saying is true.<P>If you can't do that - and I recognize it's easier to for me to say it than for you to do it - just tell the guy to come get his skull, and you'll have nothing to do with him. <P>Then, write to P&Y and tell them what a crock it is that they allow treed animals in the book at all. Organize a write-in campaign through forums like this one, supporting your position. It may not change anything, but you'll have done what you can. <P>Don't let the sport that in part supports you be degraded by this guy's deception. <P>Greggun <P> <P>

I see absolutley no problem with one informing a scoring and record keeping organization of an obvious infraction. Just in case there's some feedback though, I would preserve some evidence (i.e. the slugs, any attached tissue, and perhaps some tissue from the skull). Over the long haul, I have more respect for the folks that make the hard decisions than the ones that take the easy way out. I treasure my moments afield, and have zero tolerance for violators that rob me and others of possible opportunities. Their poor ethics are a serious threat to some of my greatest joys.<p>[This message has been edited by 1minute (edited February 08, 2001).]

I sent my local P&Y scorer an email last night informing him of what I saw and the conversation I had with the owner. I will report back on his reply. jj

JJ, I think you handled it right. If I was the bowhunter and the guide pulled that garbage unnecessarily and without me knowing it was going to happen, I'd be ****ed. You just don't know. As you said, if the guy can live with his concious, so be it. I know I couldn't stare at that plaque every day without feeling guilt.<P>I agree on the fair chase aspect too. The argument is that cats can't be killed any other way. You and I both know that isn't true. Hunting a bear over bait with a guide is similar. Though I'm damn proud of my first bear, to me it wasn't much of a hunt. At least not the type of hunt I'm used to. Same with my wife shooting her buck each year from the deck. Perfectly legal, but chances are you won't catch me doing it. I like the "hunt" too much.<P>That said, I'll likely be going after a lion with dogs this weekend. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but at the same time, I don't imagine that I'll have the feeling of having put in a real hunt when the day is over. Still, it's an experience I'm VERY excited about.<P>The guilt trip works. Years back I shot a little spork (spike x fork) buck around Entiat in WA State and another "hunter" decided he wanted it more. Told the guy, you have to pack it the whole way out knowing you didn't take it and for the next year, when you sit down at the dinner table and take a bite of this deer, you're going to know that you stole this animal. He took it anyway, but the look in his eyes while he was deciding told me I was right. Hope that buck tasted like crap!

Thanks for the clarification JJ ... It seems the discussion is directed at "records" .. and I am caught up in the "hunt" ;-)<P>For instance.. are the birds I shoot over my GSPs any less of a trophy(to me) than ones that I hiked all over the desert to find and shoot without dogs.. Well I suppose to some (purist?) the birds shot without a bird dog are more of a trophy..<P>My perspective is that the "Dogs" are part of the hunt.. and actually .. if I went bird hunting and discovered I had forgotten my shotgun.. I would go ahead and work my dogs on birds.. if I discovered I had forgotten my dogs.. I would go home.. Just a dog persons perspective ;-)<P>I understand I am on a totally different subject relative to your original post regarding ethics and/or what should or should not be considered a trophy. And in many respects I agree.. in that a person calling a cat/bear guide and then arriving for a 2 day hunt and shooting a treed animal takes very little skill on the client's part.. but for me.. to have witnessed the dogs doing what they were bred and trained to do is exciting and obviously a very effective means of harvesting an animal.<P>On another note.. it isn't always necessary to shoot the game treed or in my case pointed, something I practice frequently.. <P>.02 worth..<P>--Steve<P><p>[This message has been edited by WayCool (edited February 09, 2001).]

Wow two interesting concepts here. I will enjoy participating in both. First Muley your Bear bait analogy:<P>Hunting a bear over bait is still hunting. your attention to the bears approach, your quite time and ability to remain still and your ability to judge the trophy quality are all done by you on your own. The ability to pull of the shot without spooking the bear without any sounds or movemnet. Lets face it you shuffle your feet, sneeze or snap off the safety to loud and the bear is gone in a flash. You don't have the luxury of any mistakes at all when hunting over bait. <P>Much much different then treed lions. You can leave the lion there go home have lunch or return the next day and the lion will still be there. That's why B&C and P&Y changed the rules to say you must be present at the beginning of the hunt. <P>Too many guys were treeing lions and then calling the clients up to come shoot the cat. I know for certain this happens all the time. The hound man just brings in food for his dogs until the guy with the cash and the weapon shows up. I know of several instances where flights were taken from NY to Colorado and the clients were driven for several hours to shoot lions that were treed for several days. <P>At the time it was all legal and good to hold a cat at bay for a client. Can't put a finishing shot in with a gun, but OK to keep the lion treed for days????? <P>I even had one hound man tell me his client asked him to shoot the lion for him becuse he could not get out of his business meeting. He would fly out and tag it when he could get away from his work. I'm afraid we are not dealing with the upper limit of ethical behaviour here for many of these guys!<P>Ok next about hunting with dogs. It is great, one of the true adventures in hunting is following the dogs and watching them work. I love hunting with the hounds I trained and owned. I even liked the excitment of hunting the the hounds of others as well. But there is a big hollow feeling calling that hunting and being proud of the accomplishment. I just don't get it anymore. Bird dogs and bird hunting is much different too. The birds are shot while flying and great skill is needed to hit one out of the air. If you screw up they are gone. Not so with treed game. You can shoot all day or until your out of ammo they aint goin nowhere! They may as well be in a cage. Letting them go and running another one is good. The problem is you need to care for dogs all year round and you only get to hunt with them for big game a few months. if you can find hunters to help your expenses your gonna take it every time. The hounds are not cheap to maintain all year. You may only run a lion or two a week in good conditions. It's not quite like coon hunting where you can tree several a night.<P>Thanks to all for your input here this has been a great thread!jj

JJ, you are correct about the bear hunting. To me, there is much more to a trophy than the animal. It isn't stopping me from bait hunting again this year, but a spot 'n stalk bear would mean a lot more to me (I'll be doign that too!).<P>Like my lion -- if I get a lion this year, it'll still be special, even if it is with hounds. I'm excited to have that experience. The lion I got last year, even though he was fairly young, will be more of a trophy though.<P>As far as the "book" goes, personally I'd have a tougher time putting in a 205" typical if I simply stepped out of the truck and shot it from the trailhead vs. a 190 0/8" buck that I hunted hard for. Just my personal thoughts on what constitutes a trophy. Also, why you'd have a tough time finding me bending rules. I can't imagine the guilt I'd feel if, one of these days, I finally get that buck of my dreams and didn't get him fair 'n square.

Indeed ! Great points JJ !<P>btw.. hitting them fast flying little buggars is something I still haven't mastered ;-)<P>--Steve

Good for you, JJ. <BR>Greggun

JJ, -- kinda in a rush and didn't get to read all this thread but will comment anyway, if someone has brought it up before now you will know it twice as good. We have a small Bass Club here in Texas and host an open tournament every year,(for the last 30 years), so we know a little about the cheating business. We have a Polygraph Detective come to the weigh in and the top three teams take the test at $50 a man. A couple of years ago the winning team had to withdraw because they both failed the test twice. Seems as though they had fished inside the restricted buoys at the pump station. Why don't these officials require such a test, remove all doubt for everyone. Wish I had read all the thread before posting but must go. -- no

JJACK: You deserve a commendation. I know it's a tough choice especially for a small business operator. I live in a small town in eastern Oregon, and I will make a serious effort to look you up the next time I bag a fine animal. Doing moose/caribou in 2002, and that might be an excuse to come up. Take care.

jj: any reply to that email yet? Mike

I didnt read this whole thread. There are to many reply's and a little to much "keyboard moralizing" for me to take.<P> I really dont think its my business to tell another to snitch on another. I think record books are kind of ridiculous, demeaning to the game, and pretty much do nothing but drive up hunting prices in so called "hot area's".<P> Whats more sporting ?, sitting in a heated blind waiting for a buck to come to bait or a decoy-or-spotlighting-or-driving in a vehicle spotting game-or-shooting a bear in a garbage pile-or-useing hounds to run down a Lion in hip deep snow for hours in 10,000' elevation ?<P> I really want to caution my fellow hunters against becoming to negative against legal means of hunting game that maybe doesnt appeal to you, your just giving support to the anti's. We have all made plenty of kills where we did nothing more skillfull then shoot straight, not all killing is accomplished after a "grand stalk" and after having outsmarted the animal in free chase.<P> Sometimes your just in the right time at the right place and you didnt do anything more "skillfull" then by just being there. Whats it matter if you "shoot straight" at a deer in a clearing or a "Lion" in a tree.<P> I kind of find rifle hunting to be kind of boreing. Not rifle shooting, thats a grand sport, but "rifle hunting" ?, it just doesnt do much for me; Especially after having been to Africa, which is an experience that cant be duplicated elsewhere, not even close.<P> But I would never look down on rifle hunters even if I never picked one up again ; Its just different strokes thats all.<P> I think Jim is right in not reporting this guy. I wouldnt either.<P> The only trophy system I support is for fishing , the catch and release records, cause they promote conservation.<P> Jim I know you and why you have an aversion to hound hunting. A sportsman and stalker like you is just not the type of guy who is going to enjoy, either watching or doing, seeing treed animals get whacked. Its really something I would only do once, if at all, Im surprised you kept at it for so long.<P> But the overall issue is bigger. The big picture includes wildlife mangmt, economics, hunting right's,protecting precious hound lineage, and most of all, keeping the dumbass, un-educated, no-nothing and anti-hunting John Q public out of deciding wildlife issue's that only trained wildlife manager's should be involved in.<P> A "statewide referendum on Lion hunting with hounds" ? Are you kidding me ? Next will be a referendum on hunting period.<P> I just ask you to keep a open mind Jim. I know you are more of a hunter then a killer, and you had a lot of bad experinces with clients, but please try to look at the big picture........Rick

10pt...I'm glancing through the posts here, and I don't see anyone suggesting a statewide referendum on lion hunting with hounds. I don't think anyone here would suggest such a thing, for exactly the reasons you point out. Where did you see that?<P>As far as "keyboard moralizing" (nice term) is concerned, JJ posed the original question as "an interesting ethics issue"; that's the whole idea of an ethics issue - examining what is moral or immoral about the issue at hand. Sometimes it's kind of fun. <P>Some of the posters feel that lions taken out of a tree shouldn't be admitted into the books, that's all. I don't see anyone suggesting that lions shouldn't be hunted with hounds, again, for the reasons you point out. <P>I agree with you: Good hounds are just as much a wonder to behold as any of the sporting breeds when they're doing their job.<P>Greggun<P>

Dang, this is a good topic. Glad you brought<BR>it up. I grew up in Pennsylvania and heard<BR>many stories of hunter's deer being taken<BR>at gunpoint by other hunters. Fortunately,<BR>nothing like that happened to me. <P>You are certainly in a hard position. <P>-You do not necessarily agree with the the rules of the trophy. <P>-Nor do you belong to the committee that determines and enforces the rules. <P>-You were not directly involved in the hunt. And thus cannot testify to personally witnessing any specific facts about the hunt. <P>-You were dragged into this after the fact. In a non-hunting capacity.<P>-Yet the whole thing clearly stinks. <P>-And you have great integrity, as well as a love of your chosen profession and your sport.<P>Getting involved gains you no material benefit. And it could cause you losses, if it gets down to a mud fight. Your time is money, and your reputation is your livelihood. At best it may frustrate some individuals who may be seriously "ethically challenged". Who knows how they will try to discredit you to protect themselves. If your guess is correct, and we have every reason to believe it is, they are already willing to lie and cheat. If the stakes are raised, what will they be willing to say or do? (The old "mud wrestling with a pig" story.)<P>Perhaps you may want to very carefully determine what facts you actually can demonstrate and communicate only those. In the end it is the people who judge the trophy rules are going to have to do their job.<P>I think that everybody on this board has the highest regard for your competence and integrity. And we certainly all hope for the best.<P>Regards,<P>Tree

<P> I never accused anyone of saying there should be statewide referendums concerning hunting.<P> These referendums already exist and the ones banning hound hunting Lions and Bears have passed partially because of Hunter laxity , which , was partially caused by many hunters having a low veiw of hound hunting.<P> My post was a warning. The anti's are more then patient and very willing to chip away at sport hunting by one method at a time. If we dont all stand up for all legal hunting, instead of looking down our noses at the types we dont like,then we will lose all in the end.<P> If I ever "accuse anyone" of anything you can bet their name will be included.<P> Jims a personal friend of mine, and one ive hunted with. When I post something to him on the board I dont expect everyone to know what Im talking about because he and I have had personal conversations in the past.<P> I probably know what hes talking about better then anyone here........10

Ten, your right on the management issue and I agree shooting a lion out of a tree is a fun days work. However it does not justify the record book entry as stated by others. Shooting a lion out of a tree is not hunting it's shooting. I have no issue with chasing lions and killing them when in a tree. I just don't see it as "sport" or Being justified with a record book entry. I don't exactly care for lions, I have my reasons. I don't wnat them exterminated just not as populated as they are around here. Since the ban on hound hunting they are getting into lots of places they have not been seen in many years. I have live stock and they are a threat to me. <P>To be clear on this I Am not anti hound hunting, I do not see an ethical problem with killing a treed lion for management or "sport" I do not think it equals the same level of Hunting integrity that justifies a record book entry. <P>As far a hip deep snow at 10,000 feet you will drive up to the cat with a snow machine and shoot him. You would never need to worry about chasing them on foot for any distance! Lions usually tree within minutes of hearing the dogs closing in. The big cats have nearly zero endurance to run long, especially in deep snow. Unlike Bobcats,hogs and bears which will run all day and night before treeing, or fighting( depending on how many dogs are used). I have seen Human beings myself included run after a lions yelling and they go right up the first tree they see. It is the very rarest of lions that will run without climbing right up a tree. jj