Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game boil or beetles for bear skull?

I am curious if there is any kind of consensus on how much a bear skull will shrink as it dries? I am also curious if boiling the skull in order to clean it causes it to shrink more than using beetles? Thanks, Rufous.

rufous,
Some years ago, I took a huge alaska brown bear. His skull exceeded the B and C minimum green, but not by much. I was determined to clean it up without boiling, so for two months I scraped and cut off meat, connecting tissue, etc. to get it clean enough for the official scorer to accept it. I was so sick of smelling that skull by the end that I could hardly work on it without getting sick to my stomach. However, the end result was worth the effort- He's in the Book!!!

Of course JJHack will have the answer. I was going to send my skull to him, and have the beetle work done. But, I messed around and took too long. The meat was starting to look a bit brown, and Jim only feeds his beetles the best food. What sealed my skulls fate the most, was having my 6 yr old daughter turn off the freezer one day, and having everything in there spoil! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I gave it to a local guy to boil in January, and need to check up on how he's doing.

Rufous,

Use the beetles! The end result will be quicker and cleaner. The cost of having mine done was very reasonable...but my taxi. also does all my tanning and rugs, which would probably influence a lesser charge to me.

Hope you get a good-un when you hit the "Great Land!"

best,
bhtr

rufous, my skull will be beatle cleaned. It is the ONLY way to go with a trophy skull. Boiling is OK but the teeth tend to crack, bone mass is lost, the bone edges become more rounded, etc. I was hoping to ship my skull from Wrangell and avoid carrying it home. If you like, we can put them in the same box. I have emailed my contact in Petersberg and asked where he is getting his skulls done. The last one I got from him is a beauty. My bobcat and bear should be back before we leave and you'll be able to see them at my house before we leave.

rufous, I have gone both routes and beetle cleaining is the ONLY way to go. There is a taxidermist right in Craig that will send it to JJHack for you. If JJHack checks out this thread he can tell you the guy's name. The taxidermist can also seal your bear skull, scrape and salt your bear cape for you.

Big Sky, thanks but we will not be in Craig or even on POW. I am mainly curious about the difference between the two methods in the end result, especially in regard to the B&C score. Rufous.

I sent A 20 6/16 '' GREEN'' to J.J. and only lost a 1/16th at no fault to the BEETLES OR THERE BOSS.I have boild 6 others and lost on average 3/16. your skull will deffinatly last A lifetime after the bug and seal method than if boiled ,Boiling will weaken the bone and shrink it more then any other method. J.J.were are you?

Mine went from 20 4/16 to 20 2/16 with boiling. Guess it depends on how important the book entry is to you. I don't have a problem with boiling unless I were to shoot something that was really top end and wanted it actually entered in the book. I don't miss the 1/8 and don't intend to enter it in the book. I have other record animals from Australia and Africa that I will never enter, a couple are gold SCI.

If I was going to go through the time and money of having it officially measured then I would definitely use the beetles.

I have considered buying my own colony, think that may be the best solution for someone that does it a lot. I do a fair bit of travel hunting and am not really into trophy rooms. I very rarely get anything mounted, just do my own european style mounts.

I think the cost of a colony would be worth it. Probably could make a couple local bucks once the word got it, or at least have some fun doing your friends stuff while feeding the critters.

I just got my bear skull back from the taxidermist that i shot 22 months ago.I am very disapointed in the way it came out, there are many cracks in the skull ,the biggest runs the entire length from the nose to the back of the skull,even the top canine teeth are cracked length wise.I have boiled a couple of skulls my self and this one has the same look to it, the edges are rounded and look deteriated and worn. This skull was supposed to be cleaned using beetles, but i have some serious doubts about that. I have never seen a skull up close that was cleaned using beetles ,therefore i cannot posotively say that it was boiled . Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this?

Snow,

Sounds like it may have been over boiled and probably over soaked in chlorine or peroxide.



I have done a lot of skulls and never experienced any of the flaws you have. It definitely was not done with dermestids as their would not be any damage.



This is how I boil. I lightly boil, hard simmer, for a while. Pour off the scum so as not to pull the skull through it. Scoop out the brain, clean and scrape anything loose. Put it in clean water and let it sit outside for about 4-7 days. Occasionally pour out the water and add fresh to keep it from becoming too gross. This allows the enzymes and bacteria to break down all the soft tissue. After this, everything is falling off.



Put it in fresh water and bring it to a light boil to kill bacteria and sanitize. I use a butter knife and a toothbrush for the cleaning. Final preparation is whitening. Soak it a few hours in a light solution of chlorine or peroxide. Fully wash and rinse in fresh water. Let dry in the sun.



Too much chlorine (Clorox) or peroxide (3% Hydrogen Peroxide, Sams Club) will deteriorate the bone structures. Be sure to completely flush off these chemicals. The skull should look excellent in a week and cost almost nothing.



Never hard boil a skull. It will cause fat to impregnate the bone and remove a lot of the skull plate connective tissue causing it to shrink a little.



Just bought a colony (100) of dermestids from ebay for $22. Doing the POW bear thing again this year. I'll let you know how they work.

Snow you've done been had. There is no way that skull was beetle cleaned. Well maybe it was and then the dufus soaked it in the bleaching solution waaaaaaaaay too long. Beetle cleaning would not cause cracking or excessive bone wear. They only eat the meat and leave the bone alone. I'm thinking who ever bleached it really messed it up. There are lots of people out there that do beetle cleaning but I more impressed by what is done after the beetle's have cleaned it than what the beetles did. In my opinion that is where JJHack really shines. The skulls he cleans come out so clean, bright, and white they almost look like plastic. They are as good as they get.

I have to differ with some of the previous posts and I say this with all due respect for JJ. I have seen what beetles do to skulls and skeletons. I have also had a wolf skull which was done at JJ's operation. They don't look the same to me. The wolf skull is very brittle and had obvious glue on it when it was returned to me. The teeth were also cracked and flaking. Another skull which he did, a lynx, is in much better condition. I don't know exactly what he did to arrive at these results. I do know I would trade the cha;lky white color for better bone integrity. Make sure you know what you're getting when you have skull work done.

Beetles. The skull will come out better, no chance of over heating or loosening/cracking the teeth. Also much nicer to let the bugs do the work! Bleach the skull with the foamy hydrogen pyroxide purchased at commercial beauty supplies. Apply the foam, cover in plastic, don't let it dry out on the skull and the results will be great.

Tundra,
The couple that i have boiled were both coyotes . I removed as much flesh as i could and put them in a big pot on the stove and boiled them ,(with the windows and doors open) untill the remaining soft tissue would come off easily. Once they cooled down enough to handle i rinsed them under cold water and let them dry.They came out fair and would have benefited greatly from a little bit of bleaching. I didnt know at that time that they needed to be bleached.Thank you very much for the info I printed youre procedure and will do it that way next time.

Big Sky,
I agree with you, The color on this skull isnt even close to white it is a very light creme and the cracks are light brown. I was going to send this to JJ but this taxidermist quoted me the same price and claimed it was the same procedure.He mounted a Caribou for me in the past and it came out very good , so instead of shipping it to JJ i gave it to him with the hide.When i picked it up he said that it didnt come out that good and reduced the price to $40 . I could care less about the money . This is the first bear that i have shot and who knows when i will get another one.I regret not sending it to JJ. At this point i just hope the rug comes out OK. Thanks for the info.

Rufous,

Here's a close-up of JJ's work on my pard's black bear skull. Puts my boiled skulls to shame any day!


Check out how clean the surface looks! Well done JJ!

MtnHtr

P.S. For JJ, have you heard from our friend lately? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was at Jim's house a couple weeks ago, and he has a huge variety of skulls and animals he's done. All of the work looked great.

The skulls he had looked just right...but the various skeletons really caught my eye. Pretty fascinating to see the snakes and rodents that he's done...

I would definitely send my bear skulls to him...

dave

Very, very kewl pic!!!!

I have been out of town for a while and I had no internet Access. When I open up the 24 hour site I see this interesting topic. I would like to point out a few things about skulls for those interested in understanding what�s involved with the process. I will also use Tanning as an example that some here may be familiar with as well.

Let�s start with Tanning because it has the same basic issues as processing a skull or bone. There are three equal parts of responsibility to assure that the tanned hide or the processed skull comes out clean and nice. 33% is going to be genetic makeup of the animal. Some are really fat and require massive chemical treatment to remove that fat. Or heat in the form of boiling. Some have a skin problem just like some Human beings have baldness, exema, or rashes dandruff etc. Some are very young and the bone sutures are not bonded strongly, nor are the teeth rooted firmly. Some are very old and have a yellow cast to the bone or have many years of fat buildup inside the bone, nearly impossible to remove within a reasonable time or without heat. If you have ever seen a museum display of skulls or skeletons they are not snow white. They are dull and grey showing plenty of greasy or oily spots on the bone. The �denaturing� of the bone will almost always have a negative effect on the finished product, but makes the skull more presentable as a trophy for sportsman.

Tanning has plenty of issues with genetics that can cause lots of trouble for taxidermists when they get a hide back and try to mount it. Fortunately Taxidermists have the cosmetic tools available to hide much of the problems that occur. Clays, epoxy, paint airbrushes etc. can correct many problem areas on mounted game. Skulls are the most basic form of trophy with no smoke and mirrors possible to make any genetic problems un-noticeable.

The next 33% involves the processing of the animal in the field right after death. This is without a doubt the most common area for trouble. Getting the hide off and salted fleshed down properly and dried out of the reach of the sun is critical. Turning the ears to the tips and the lips eyelids and nose is absolutely vital to have a perfect mount. The same can be said for skulls preparation to a lesser degree. Never salt a skull that is going to be bug cleaned, never letting it begin rotting or spoiling, never allowing any other form of insect life to get into the skull. All of these things will cause stains in the bone or the change in viscosity of fat in the bone to seep into the small areas of the skull and jaw that create real trouble removing it later.

Finally 33% is the responsibility of the skull processor or tannery. They too have a large portion of the pie in making sure the work is done perfectly. The main struggle for them and the cause of blame to them is that they have a process that tans the skins, or cleans the bone of many animals at one time. No commercial tannery will do one deer cape at a time; no commercial skull processing outfit will process a single skull at a time. The chemicals used and the vats or tanks used are premixed for the average or typical treatments and �batches� of hides or skulls are processed at one time. Because of this �batch� system those poorly handled skulls and capes, or those that have genetic issues get treated right along with those that have no problems at all. When the treatment process is complete not all will be equally perfect. It�s just not possible to make an affordable process that does only one at a time. Speaking only for myself and my business here, I have been asked to �hand carry� a special trophy from start to finish and be sure everything possible is done to make it as perfect as it can be. When I did the Number 1 Griz, the number 2 Polar bear, and several 22� plus black bears I have done this. These elite trophies really had to be watched as they are among the biggest in the world. Many of the zoo and museum specimens are done the same. It�s not possible to do 300 to 400 black bears a year with that same kind of attention. At least not at an affordable cost. The amount of problems in Tanning I have seen are very low. I have been using New Method Tannery in San Fran for many years now. My local taxidermy shop where I do my work also uses them and Carolina Fur Dressing. In about the last 10 years we have probably had a dozen capes or hides fail and cause trouble. Not bad out of probably 1000 sent to them. The same with Skulls. I have had real problems with only a handful of them. Mostly due to being young, or poorly handled prior to arrival. A few admittedly come out of a batch process that don�t look as good as the others for unknown reasons. Not all skulls are created equal, and there is no cosmetic correction possible with plain raw bone.

One more thing regarding teeth splitting. This has been ongoing research between me and three of the other large commercial processors in the USA. Between us we have over 60 years processing experience and several hundred thousand skulls and skeletons completed. Each time we visit and discuss the business and the processes we use the topic of teeth comes up. To this day we have not found any way to guarantee the prevention of the canine teeth from splitting. I am open to ideas and suggestions on this and have heard every line of crap you can imagine from garage taxidermists who use a special wax to some guys with experience who have a special epoxy coating. Nothing will work and I have tried them all (I think). I have sat and discussed this with curators at the Chicago Museum of Natural History and the American Museum of Natural history in NYC. I also set up the bug room and had a week long stay with the curator of the museum in Cape Town South Africa learning what they do and how they solve various issues.

Maybe you have noticed that only canine teeth typically split. Not the molars or incisors. I have spoken to my dentist about this at great length. The Canine teeth are curved and as they dry out they tend to straighten. When the force to straighten is great enough they split. The removal of all natural oils and grease from the tooth tends to accelerate the splitting. Not all teeth are created equal. I have 20 year old skulls I have boiled to death when I was young and inexperienced at this. They still have perfect teeth without splits to this day. Yet I have done several hundred wolf skulls for the Alaska Fur Exchange and at random the canines have split while in the freezer, or while the bugs were cleaning them. There is no way to predict or prevent the splitting of the teeth.

There are several ways to expedite the splitting which should be avoided though. Boiling will reduce the fat and grease in the bone so rapidly that tooth splitting is common. Either during boiling or shortly after. Using Chlorine bleach will also breakdown the oils in the enamel and split the teeth. Hydrogen Peroxide in high percentages will do this as well. Diluted it is much better but still has an effect on skulls and teeth based on the genetics.