Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Lever gun pressure?

jackfish, CZ550


Thanks for the input And information (and remembering I had an XLR�. Impressive)!!!!

I will start with the Speer 400Gr Data and compare it to what jackfish gave me and the results I get from� Load From A Disk�.

I really appreciate the help you guys have given me�.

I will order some 405Gr Rem tonight and give it a go!

T

Sticky extraction has not been a good indicator of high pressure with the 30-30 lever guns for me. A 170-grain bullet loaded ahead of 31.0 grains of IMR 3031 will not demonstrate sticky extraction and yet it is approximately 1 � grains over what is now considered a maximum load. As late as the 1960�s I saw many references to 32.0 grains of IMR 3031 and 170-grain bullets as a maximum load. I shot these loads and did not encounter any difficulty but I knew they were high pressure, even then.

PRE measurements while not an indication of pressure in PSI or CUP will give a cautious handloader a stop point. For the standard 30-30 .4205� to .4210� PRE in a Winchester Model 94AE is a reliable stop measurement for me.

I certainly agree with Marc that Lever Kick is a very good indicator of high pressure with the Big Bore rifles and cartridges. I would be very concerned if I experienced lever kick with the standard 30-30 cartridge in a lever-action rifle.

I have looked at case stretch and I also agree you can use this as a good indication of pressure by measuring case stretch using once fired brass. One thing to keep in mind is the 30-30 case seems to never stop stretching in a lever action rifle and while the case appears to last forever I try to throw them away after ten shots. Even at today�s prices brass is cheaper than a hospital stay. The bottle neck cases stretch a bit differently from the straight wall cases. I have broken a number of standard 30-30 and 30-30AI cases at the pressure ring and all of them pushed out of the chamber using a stiff brush. I have never broken a straight wall case but I would imagine it would push out also. A broken case could ruin a hunt and I try to hunt using new or once fired cases.

When discussing the standard 30-30 or the 30-30 Improved I have found the best method for me is to start any new load development using IMR powder and the Powley Computer for my initial load work. I find using PRE with stop points established using IMR powders a good baseline for developing loads using other powders.

"The question is how does one recognize high pressure in a lever gun? We should be aware..."

In my opinion, there are no reliable methods to recognize high pressure indications in a lever action, other than using an actual pressure gun and/or a chronograph as suggested on these pages.

It has been proven that using the old, reliable indicaters of excess pressures is no longer feasable. Things like hard extraction, case head stretching, flattened primers, and other indicators. Some of these are indicators or too high pressures, but none of them will tell you the actual pressure. When you first see these indicaters, you might realize you have gotten into dangerous territory, but you have no idea about how far into this dangerous territory you have ventured.

A load that is safe in a bolt rifle could possibly wreck a lever rifle on the first shot, and it takes some really high pressures to cause stuck cases and expanded case heads in bolt rifles. If you have reached this point with a bolt rifle, the same load would be way past even remotely safe in a lever gun. If you were getting stuck cases in a bolt rifle, these same loads would have already wrecked your lever gun.

I used to load shot gun shells. I remember reading on a forum about a reader asking about high pressure indicators in shot gun loads. Shotgun pressures from about 10,000 about 12,000 PSI or a little more are considered safe in shotguns.

Whoever answered the question said that you could tell by examining the primer or being aware of case sticking.

For the sake of argument, assume that it takes 100,000 psi to flatten a rifle primer. Can anyone imagine what a load like this would do to a shotgun? Back down a lot, to 80,000 psi, and you could probably get away with it in a bolt rifle, but 80,000 psi in a shotgun is a no no. It is also a no no in a lever gun.

I have seen pictures of primers that were flattened by normal loads, and pictures of primers that appeared normal, but the loads were acutally excessive.

The point being, if you are trying to compare pressure readings to a bolt rifle, shotgun, or lever gun, you can't do it, because the different guns are designed to handle different pressure levals than others.

You also cannot use loads developed and proven safe in a bolt rifle in a lever gun, with any measure of safety.

I agree with 1234567, I received my 30-30 as an inheritance from one of my uncles. My reloading is 90 percent bolt guns and a couple of "gas guns", ( a Garand and an M-1A). When I got into the 30-30 thing I found out there's no real way to read pressure signs so that's why I figured on just staying within 30-30 limits as dictated by loading manuals and the chronograph. Works good for me. If anybody wants to go beyond 30-30 ballistics then that's just a good excuse for needing another rifle. As "Dirty Harry", aka Clint Eastwood, once said; "A man's got to know his limitations".

.

Good post! So the consensus of this group is that "start low and work up" is just a figure of speech and cannot be done reliably in a lever gun. "Working up" until sign of pressure are noted does not apply to shotguns and lever guns.

Thanks, Gentlemen.

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I think the consensus is to not exceed either the charge or velocity of a published load. However, it is foolhardy not to watch for the classic signs of excessive pressure even in lever action rifles.

The problem with that is, the first sign of excessive pressures in a lever gun or shotgun might be a multi-piece rifle instead of a one piece rifle way it came the manufacturer.

Or it might not. So you ignore such signs if they become apparent when one is below the maximum charge and velocity? I'm saying that even if one stays within the maximum published charge and velocity they still have to regard such signs if they show up. And they can.

�The problem with that is, the first sign of excessive pressures in a lever gun or shotgun might be a multi-piece rifle instead of a one piece rifle way it came the manufacturer.�

I am certainly pleased to report that none of my lever-action rifles have proven to be this fragile.
I am not an advocate of high pressure loading for the standard 30-30 cartridge as other cartridges meet the requirement for higher velocity and increased energy in these rifles. The 30-30AI, 308 Marlin Express and the 307 Winchester provide more power in the same package.
I have loaded the 30-30AI to high pressure for many hundreds of rounds in the Winchester Model 94AE and the Marlin 336 with no indication of wear or strain on the rifles.
I have a Model 94AE in 25-35 in which I regularly load the 100-grain Speer JHP bullet to 2,600 fps+ with no difficulties and excellent case life � I have never lost a case.

Getting back to the original question I will again suggest using a reliable software program or the Powley Computer to help establish a PRE stop measurement based on estimated pressure with supporting data from the chronograph. You will not know the pressure in PSI or CUP but you will be able to develop loads for your rifle which are safe.
By graphing your loads by fps-per grain of powder you can also watch for a break-over point where the velocity increase per grain of powder increase slows. At this point you at least reached a practical maximum for you bullet weight and powder combination.
Using these methods you will be able to work with powders for which there is no published load data with a reasonable expectation of safety.

"the first sign of excessive pressures in a lever gun"

According to what has been written on this forum during the past few months, there are no reliable "signs of excessive pressure" in any type of gun. In addition, a pressure range that is considered very high in a lever gun could very well be within normal operating pressures in a bolt gun.

And even if reliable signs of excessive pressure existed, they would be for a bolt gun and not a lever gun.

A chronograph and reloading manual is the only way to go, if you do not have access to a prssure gun and even then, if the manual gives a load for 4831 and by mistake, you use the same amount of 4895, then the chronograph, pressure range, and loading manual is not helpful.

I don't know what the effect of substituting 4895 for an equal amount of 4831 would be on the velocity, but I would imigine it would be quite a bit more than what the reloading manual gives for 4831.

For example, if your rifle has been factory proof tested for a load giving 60,000 PSI on a daily basis, and you start at the miminum load given in your manual, increasing the powder in 1 or 1/2 grain increments, there is no possible way you are going to know when you reach 60,000 PSI. Looking at the primer will not tell you. Measuring the case head will not tell you. Ease of bolt lift will not tell you.

If you have to hammer the bolt open, the case head markings are obliterated, the case head is expanded and deformed and brass has flowed into the ejecter and the primer pocket is aout 1/4 inch in diameter, and is blackened from excaping gas, then this might give a slight indication that you have gone beyond the 60,000 PSI limit, but not how far above, or when you reached the limit.

If you get all this, it is possible that a bolt rifle will hold togather, at least for one or two more shots or until you add a little more powder, but I would not count on a lever gun holding togather under these conditions.