Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters MULEDEER DEBUNKS "Magnum" Myth's and hype in latest American Hunter Magazine article!

they fire at KNOWN ranges at matches, guys, with wind flags and spotter shots, on nice, stationary black and white targets (of just the right size of black, too). Almost none of that applies to hunting. also, as long as the bullet pokes a hole in a pc of paper, it's got sufficient energy. That's decidedly untrue of humanely taking big animals.



Also, the 308 wont reliably expand a softpoint much beyond 400 yds, because it lacks the velocity to do so. That's especially true of the heavily constructed bullets that are designed for use on elk. You want an EXIT wound on game, so that you have a blood trail to follow, but you also want maximial shock and tissue damage, so that the animal is taken as swiftly as possible. A non-expanding softpoint is the same thing as military fmj bullets, with only caliber sized holes in the animal, and much energy wasted on the far side of the critter. bad news, when what you want is a humane killl.



You have no control whatsoever over whether or not the game moves as you fire, or as the bullet is in flight. Any animal can take 1 step in .5 second, and 1/2 step means a gut shot. So a round with less flight-time, to say, 400 yds, means less possibility of a cripple, assuming that a good hand fires it.



308 milsurp ammo is so cheap, there's no need to reload it. In the time you wasted on reloading, a 308 user can get in a lot of practice. A great many field shots have to be hastily taken, or foregone, because the animal will be GONE if you take more than a few seconds in which to fire. For such practice, the 2.5 MOA of typical 308 ball ammo suffices just fine.



With the tremendous savings of using 308 milsurp ammo, you can afford to ALSO have a magnum, and practice with it the little bit more that is needed to "upgrade" your ability with the heavier than 308 recoil. At a savings of $200 per 1000 rds, you can have a used bolt 300 mag, scope and all, in a very few thousand rds. That much magnum shooting would probably require the replacement of your Magnum barrel ($250+) too, ya know.



So it's not like you HAVE to choose one or the other. The 308 doesn't have much poop left for big game, at 500 yds, with a typical softpoint. It probably wont expand that softpoint, either. So using the 308 at such ranges is like using a AK, with ball ammo, at 50 yds. How many of you would consider the AK ok for elk, at 50 yds, unless you took head shots, hmm? Check out the 308's velocity and energy numbers at 500 yds. They aint much. 1800 fps, 1200 ft lbs, at best. If you don't use the optimal barrel length and bullet wt and type, and the hottest load, the 308 at 500 yds is like a .30 carbine at 50 yds (using ball ammo, to boot)



There's no reason to not practice (mostly) with low cost 308 ammo, and then hunt with something else, if the critter and range indicates that you need more range and power. Knowledgable hunters NEVER take a long, expensive hunt with just ONE rifle and scope, anyway. Too often, something goes wrong with the "main" rifle, and they end up having to use somebody's 30-30. :-)

Huh?

Chuck

could you expand on how that actually effected any real life hunting situations under 300 yards?

Animal reaction, wound channel, number of holes.........

What is your experience with said cartridges?

Chuck

Phillip,

My allegiance to the 257Wby,is due to it's ability to capably burst the bubbles you mention.

It drops little,beats the wind well and hits hard on the receiving end. That she does it with modest recoil,sweetens the pot.

2 inches high at 100yds,she drops but 25 inches at 550yds. Let me say that again.....550yds. That with a proven Game projectile,that makes excellent use of it's inherent attributes. She drifts but 19 inches at that distance in a 10mph crosswind and impacts with 2450fps remaining velocity.

That'd be how one gets his cake and eats it too......................

how you figure THAT? overpriced gun and ammo, nothing but a bolt action.

The trajectory figures I was reading came straight from a Remington catalog I had lying around. The .257 Weatherby does sound interesting, and I had always read that it was practically the flattest shooting factory cartridge available. Virtually all of the cartridges that I mentioned shoot at very similiar velocities, the differences are in caliber and bullet weight as they go up in scale. I have always thought, maybe mistakenly, that anyone shooting at game past approximately 350-400 yards would and should be using a rangefinder to find exact distance and figure the drop from there. If the distance is known pretty well dead on, then a few inches of drop wouldn't matter too much, the shooter could either hold over or dial in the right correction and connect. Under 300 yards, any of these cartridges (or the magnums) would be practically point blank aim, no corrections required, except for wind drift. Again, I am not an expert by any means, but my observations have been that long for the caliber high sectional density/high ballistic coefficient bullets fly truest in the wind, and those are rarely the ones with the highest velocity and flattest trajectory for the caliber. I don't know enough to thoroughly debate anyone too much about these things, but my own personal thoughts would be to choose a round with the correct bullet weight and design to get the job done, without too terrible much emphasis being placed on sheer velocity. Down here in Alabama the biggest deer around won't break 200 pounds by much, and shots are rarely if ever over 200 yards, so many folks are burning barrels, eardrums, shoulders, and greenbacks totally unnecessarily. Things might be utterly different out West, or in Alaska, I'll let you guys tell me, so that I can read and learn! But I can still see some guy sitting in a tree stand holding a .30-378 Weatherby with a 6.5-20X scope looking to shoot a whitetail doe at 75 yards! That .257 might be more like it though, that Weatherby is nasty. ouch

tsquare

Great post. I too, have nothing against those that want to use magnums if it makes them feel better. But for myself, it dawned on me one day that I had seen more elk killed with the 30-06 than all other calibers combined. The largest bull I have seen was killed with a 270. If I'm not mistaken it is still the largest bull elk killed in Montana. These were part of the reasons my 300 Win Mag left the safe. I realized I really didn't need it for the hunting I did.

The longest killing shot I have ever taken was a few paces over 350 of my paces. I am a tad over six feet tall, hence, I know my paces are a strong three feet each. This was an antelope and the rifle was a 270 Winchester and a Nosler solid base loaded right around 3100 on my chronograph. The shot literally took his legs out from under him. This helped me realize I didn't really need my 7mm Rem Mag anymore either.

I will probably always have a 338 Win Mag because of the particular rifle it is in, and a 375 H&H because I enjoy plinking with one. But in all honesty they don't get taken to the field much in the lower 48 while hunting. I realize others will not share my opinion on what is neccesary, but I like to think "To each his own". If others feel it is neccesary to carry a magnum, then by all means do so. I just don't happen to think I need one.

So why don't you practice with a 223 for even cheaper practice ammo?

As I understood the article, MD declared magnums aren't needed for the far and away vast majority of hunting situations. And people are arguing it? How many deer, elk, moose, cariboo, antelope, and sheep are REALLY shot at over 300yds each year COMBINED? Tell, me again how a 308/7x57/6x55/7-08/280/etc isn't enough gun.

If I use a rifle it's one of 2 - 243 or 7mm RemMag. Quite the differance, right? Not really. The 243 is a single shot (NEF specifically) beater gun for crap weather tight quarters. The 7mmRemMag is the first LH bolt gun I managed to find. It fit I bought it that simple. In MY opinion my 7 RemMag (Savage 110) kicks about the same as my buddy's 270 Ruger. From what I can gather in the real world the 7 RemMag isn't that much superior to the 280Rem until bullets reacht the 160gr level.

I might buy another rifle someday. Right now the leading canidates are a M70 or a Ruger #1 - the caliber isn't that important.

FWIW, far and away the majority of my time prowling the woods is with a T/C Contender. Normally a 7-30 Waters. A 375 Win or 338JDJ#2 (roughly a 33 WC) is about to take up residence as my goto barrel (see the article on shooting for meat) possibly even with a 16" barrel to do double duty as a carbine.

You have to watch those. They do not always make fair comparissions. If it said the 243 Win. and the 25-06 Rem. had the same drop and wind drift out to 500 yards I'd almost bet they were comparing the 25-06 using a 120 gr. bullet.

compare a 25-06 with a 100 gr. bullet with a .243 loaded with a 100 gr. bullet ( both good hand loads ) and see how they compare now.

In my opinion, The magnum / large volume cases are at their best with light for caliber bullets.

Load a 25-06 with a 120 grain bullet and it's no better than a 270 loaded with 130 gr. bullets and not much better than a 30-06 with 150 gr. bullets.

The 220 Swift, the 25-06, and the 257 Weatherby are my favorites. They remind me of that old 1960's slogan; "Speed Kills".

Match those cartridges up with the right bullet weight, the right powder, and a properly long barrel and they are simply amazing. Giant killers, all three.

I figure THAT,due to more than a smidge of familiarity with said cartridge.

Re-22 and the 100XLC offer said results,outta a 26" tube.

The combo lends itself well to precise placement of copious Mojo and the bolt action eeks such precision.

"Price" is subjective. I view that level of performance as being cheap insurance,on a sure thing. A chambering is no better than the projectile employed and in that diameter,at that speed,nuttin' is better IMHO.

I see you don't get out much and have the experience to prove it...........................

Phillip,

Canned Lightning comes in a rifle with "257Wby" stamped upon it's shank.

I can't know how it does what it does,as it routinely does things that Physics doesn't seemingly allow for. She has the Mojo running full tilt and has just gotta be seen,to be appreciated.

A chambering that defeats atmospheric conditions nicely and gobbles up distance greedily,is pretty damned easy to do well with. Doubly so,in something that doesn't buck.

Now I'm a Laser Toter of the first order and am a Turret Slut too. That being said,something that you can sight +2.00" high at 100yds and is a scant -6.6" low at 400yds,will do many things,less scope input and that covers lotsa typical encounters.

The 550yd figures were to illustrate how little she do drop,as compared to figures/chamberings,that you mentioned in passing. She'll retain 2000fps impact velocity,to the 775yd line,with a lowly .420BC projectile(aforementioned XLC).

In summation,it's about as close to toting a laserbeam,as one can get. None of them is bad things...................

Stick, you're a very convincing man! If I ever get a chance to buy another centerfire rifle, I will see if I can find a .257 Weatherby chambering. I looked in the book, and with the 87 grain varmint bullets, that caliber should simply vaporize any varmints I would find, and with the heavier bullets, any deer I could think of finding around here would be in the freezer promptly! Who chambers in the .257 besides Weatherby? I may never get to needing one, but it doesn't hurt to have the knowledge in mind just in case an opportunity arises. A .250 Savage would work fine around here, but they're virtually dead these days, a shame. The vast majority of hunters around here use the .30-06. Some stick to the .30-30, some swear by 7mm Rems, occasionally a .243, I even know one guy who swears by the .22-250, but by and large the .30-06 is EVERYWHERE. I only rarely come across anyone shooting any exotic calibers around here.

2 reasons 223 ammo AINT cheaper,and it's too far away from the recoil of the 300 mag. So you just DUCK my points, eh? :-) Sure sign that you can't debate on the issues;

257 's long been the "problem child" in the Weatherby line. Badly overbore, hard on barrels, and pretty heavy slug for taking chucks and crows, wouldn't ya say? So just how much real use is it gonna see, hmm? Close to the feeble side for use on elk, and certainly so for use on the big bears. It's probably a primo choice for really long shots on pronghorn, but those critters are so fast, and so skittish, that they are really good candidates for a gut shot, due to movement, either as you fire or as the bullet flies. 3200 fps muzzle velocity still means it takes over a half a second to cover 500 yds, and an animal can take a step in a half a second, and half a step = a gut shot. Long range guys typically also want to be able to take ass-on shots, if need be, and the 257 is definitely on the underpenetrative side for that sort of shot. So why not practice with the 308, and have the far more capable-versatile 300 Win mag on hand, too, eh? Why pay the extra money for 257 ammo, and have such a limited range of uses?

Poke the other oar in the water and you won't get so dizzy....................

Dare say you put expensive glass on a medicore Cartrige, say 30-06 and what do you have.. a 400 yd shooter. A 300weatherby with cheap glass is what a 400 shooter.Put iron sights on either and what have ya got a 200 yd. shooters. Thing I'll go buy a one of those new 200 yd shooters, say a BLR .358 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I shoot a little of everything and one could formulate a stance for most any offering.

With that being said,the 257Wby operates in rare air. Everything is give and take,but IMHO it offers much,while asking for little in return.

That'd be a good trade...................

Let me see. 223 milsurp is $53 per 500. 308 is $56 (on sale).

As for the rest of your "points". If you had one related to the topic I'd deal with it. As for all this long range blasting please. Who are these long range shooters that want to be able to take a butt shot?

I've certainly never heard of a TRUE long range hunter taking a "Texas heart Shot"! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
The ones I converse with , and myself, are more concerned with precise bullet placement, and that ain't it!
as for prices, how in the world could .223 be MORE expensive than .308? It just don't add up!
That guy's dogs ain't all barkin' at the same moon!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />