Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters MULEDEER DEBUNKS "Magnum" Myth's and hype in latest American Hunter Magazine article!

All you have to do is check the prices of milsurp. with the silly exception of steel cased crap, 223 costs about the same as 308. see, most countries have wised up, gone with the 223, so the 308 ammo is being dumped onto the surplus market, at whatever price it will bring,which aint much. Same thing as the .30AK ammo. Supply and demand determine such prices, not what you "think" the price "should be", but what people are willing to pay.



big deal, you looked at TWO instance of the ammo prices, and came within 1 c per shot. Same thing. Take a look at the price of factory 257 Wby ammo lately? Or the price of brass, which with the belted cases, and hot loads, doesn't last for many loadings? Ask any big game guide if some of his hunters dont WANT to take ANY shot offered, including ones on FLEEING animals (usually rear quarter angle, or straight away from the hunter) The further the hunter has come, the more rare the game, the later in the the hunt, the more expensive the hunt, the more this is true.

What a bunch of "Richards". Why do those who do not choose to shoot a magnum feel they gotta disrespect those of us who do choose to shoot a magnum, everything from "if you want to beat yourself up" to "its OK for those who feel they need a magnum ...". You don't hear magnum shooters saying "gee, those who don't shoot magnums are a bunch of kitties". Why is there this justifcation among those who enjoy standard cartridges constantly stating the absurdity of magnum cartriges? Just answer why?!

There may be one or two posters on this forum (usually our village idiots) who think that magnums are the only way to go and anyone who doesn't shoot one is a kitty ... but for crying out loud .. it isn't the majority of us. What started as an accolade to Johnny B. has finally turned into an us vs. them type of argument. For crying out loud, as stated here by several people who enjoy shooting magnums, .... We just like them ... they are our bag of tea. I personally need NO other justifcation other than that ... I certianly don't feed the need to bash someone else to feel good about what I shoot.

Com'on crew ... get over it and just accept that some people like shooting something different than YOU!

The guy I buy my factory ammo from( both calibers) charges much less for .223 than .308, and they are both accurate.
Avagadro, was you statement aimed at me? I am just wondering, because I load for a large number of magnum shooters, and have never said durogatory things about them, only that I can't shoot them, and although I have owned a few, don't own any now.
When I say I can't shoot them, a 257 WBY would not be out of the question.
I am an ex guide, and never advocated chancy shots, that is just not good business. Much easier to call a moose in closer for a sure shot....
catnthehat

actually Cat, you have said nothing deragatory regarding magnums or their shooters, I fully respect the reason you don't shoot a magnum, actually I respect everybodies reason for not shooting a magnum ... what burns my a$$ is the little respect those of us who choose to shoot a magnum receive ... or if some do choose to honor our choices, there's always just a little piss added to their concession which seems to place themselves onto a little higher pedestal.

You gents enjoy this thread, I think I'm done with it.

Magnum Slut...................(grin)

I came of age during the magnum craze, guess that's part of the reason my two classic hunting rifles are 7mmRemmag and .338 it's big brother <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I can't shoot nearly as well as either rifle is capable of, and not nearly as well as some of our posters here. Over time I realize most of the game I have taken could have been taken with standard calibers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But it's okay with me, I ended up taking em with those mags anyway, and just get a little extra slap to boot! According to my wife, I can use all the extra slaps I get.

I hunt according to my abilities, I would shoot a sheep with my 7 at 300-350 yards, with the .338 250-300 is max for me.
I just have to work at it a little and get closer than some of you all and I realize with that, some game that you could take gets away from me in a like scenario.

Yep I'd of been fine with a .270 or 30.06 but I have what I have, and have put some time behind the wheel on both. Guess I'll live with em and the accompaning shame that goes with ownin' em <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But due to my limitations on long range shooting, I have become somewhat adept at sneaking and slithering to get close enough for me. Yeah I bought into the hype of the magnum craze, but I'm still enjoying em even with my newfound knowledge! So sue me. 1akhunter

Why is there this justifcation among those who enjoy standard cartridges constantly stating the absurdity of magnum cartriges? Just answer why?!



avagadro



I'll take a stab at this. I really don't think there is a constant stating in general. I made the statement for MY hunting I have proven to myself I don't need a magnum. I didn't tell you or anyone else you don't need one. If I gave you that impression, I'm sorry. Such was surely not my intent.



But while we're on this subject, what reasons are given for justifing people's reasons for owning a magnum. There are a lot more than simply saying "Because I want one". The statement "Because I want one" is perfectly all right with me. However my eyes do roll a bit when I read "Because it gives me something extra at long ranges that standard rounds don't have" or "I can shoot as flat with a bullet 20 or 25 grains heavier than a standard round". These are just a couple of them I have read or heard. Does this mean because someone chooses to shoot a standard round that they can't shoot long ranges or that they have to use a lighter bullet in order to be on the same level as their magnum carrying friends? If some think the answer is yes to this, I say it is absurd to think that. I know if you really think about it you will remember other statements that were made to try and justify owning a magnum by comparing them to a standard round. In fact there is a thread on comparing the 6.5X55 to the 264 Magnum on this forum right now. I'm not saying it is wrong, but it does beg the opposite side to come up with statements ridiculing the other side doesn't it? Why can't we just say I shoot standard or magnum rounds because they work for me in my hunting situations and besides that "I LIKE them!!"?? After all, that is the only reason or justification I can give for owning a 375. I will undoubtedly never need one, but by the same token I have it because I like it.

Yup, that about sums the "why" of it up for me too!
Same thing holds for BP cartridge rifles, or any other .
They may not be better just preferred.
I think a lot of our threads get off topic unintentionally,
and lead to bad feelings all over, JMO!
catnthehat

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Actually, that was the FIRST place I looked (Midway) and the 308 was on sale. Cheaper Than Dirt, right now it's $0.05 more per shot for 308. I haven't even bothered getting a recent Shotgun News. To make matters worse, Winchester white box 223 is $0.11 a box cheaper (note this is fresh Winchester ammo vs milsurp; PMC is $0.40 a box cheaper (again new factory fresh commercial ammo vs milsurp).

You're trying to give me a lesson in economics? I know this will be hard for you, but follow along. 30-06 has been out on the milsurp market for ages. It hasn't been used in ages. Guess what? It STILL costs more than 308 and 223. Do you know why? Because at even $7 a box is MUCH cheaper than new factory ammo.

right, and if you looked a bit further, you'd find a better price on the 308 ammo, too. The point mostly is, however, that 223 recoils more like 22lr than like 300 win Mag. If training for the .300 win mag, 223 is a stupid choice. 308 is much more like it. Not that the 300 win mag is necessary, or that long shots are advisable, or that you need anything of the kind in order to get food. It's all about sport, therefore it's all bs. If you actually needed the meat, you wouldn't give a hoot in hell what time of year it was, or about rules against snaring, jacklighting, baiting, taking females, etc.

Big Stick,
I am wondering about a statistic of your .257 wby.

At 550 yards, when your talking about a 19" wind drift, and a drop of -25", what is the size of your groups?

I might as well wade in and give my opinion.
I use both magnums and standard cartridges for big game depending on the quarry and range. However if I were limited to one or one main hunting rifle for big game it undoubtedly and unabashedly would be a 30 caliber magnum. The reasons are very simple.

1. I am looking for a rifle which will EXCEL (not merely be good enough to get by) in ALL circumstances.

2. While anyone can figure bullet drop and compensate for it, the wind drift is best overcome with more velocity and/or higher BC bullets.

3. Being able to hit an animal in the vitals at 400-500 yards with only a 308/30-06 is only half the equation--responsible hunters want to cleanly kill it. Every bullet must retain sufficient velocity and energy to do this. At 400-500 yards a 308/30-06 shooting a 180 grain bullet into lungs may not initiate sufficent expansion to cleanly kill game. A 300 magnum with a 180 grain is a whole different story--it has sufficient velocity to make the bullet open and kill efficiently, especially with premium projectiles. If the 308 shooter uses a very soft bullet to overcome this handicap, then he will be looking at over-expansion at short ranges. I personally have no interest in assigning myself limitations on equipment when I head for the field.

4. Further the 300 magnum can be loaded with 200 grain bullets that easily match or exceed the trajectory of the standards with 165 grain loads which opens up a whole new level of performance.

5. For me the greatest benefit of the 30 caliber standard cases comes in the fact that they can be necked down to obtain near magnum/magnum velocities.

So with a 30 caliber magnum I have all the advantages in my favor at all ranges in terms of energy, velocity, trajectory, bullet performance, bullet weight. Everything a 30 caliber standard does in the field, the 30 caliber magnum will do better with the right projectiles.
I could care less about cheap milsurp ammo as it interests me little in an all-round hunting rifle.

Sure you can do fine with a standard round providing you are willing to accept their limitations--but I am not. An excellent hunter and sharpshooter toting a magnum has the best of all things. It all comes down to whether a person is proficient with a magnum or not and whether he chooses to accept the limitations of a standard 30 caliber cartridge versus the better capabilities of a magnum.

If I really want to accept limitations in my hunting gear and focus on hunting skills, then I pick up a bow.

Having watched the man shoot quite a few times, I'm guessing they're small!!!!!!!

At risk of appearing like I have my nose up his ass, I'll tell you in all seriousness, by an order of magnitude, Big Stick shoots more than anyone I know or have even met. He's a prime example of the phrase "people make their own luck."

'Dog,

Those are the performance characteristics of the cartridge,what one does with it and when,are seperate matters.

I've never advocated the Hail Mary,nor the Hurricane Poke,that stance will never change. The numbers were for evaluation purposes,to size up that chambering,in comparison to the others mentioned. Crunch the data,she sings.

Let's put it this way,the 257Wby defeats atmospheric conditions better than most and that performance isn't gonna hurt production,granted the Operator retains a shred of common sense. The less correction required,the more apt one is to thread the needle.

I've played with lots of 'em and nothing makes things easier than Roy's Bad Boy 25. Something hauling that much ass,topped with turrets that repeat,is simply beyond sinister...................

Shooting might could be a hobby of mine.

I loaded 450rds of 223AI,100rds 300Whizzums,150rds 7-08's and 50rds 338Ultra yesterday,so I can practice while away at Camp. Might could have 2,000rds of 22lr in my crummy,to whistle through a coupla pistoles. Gonna throw in 1K of 308 ball too.

I'll take some pictures this evening in Camp and Post them this weekend. We might be cork wearing derelicts,but we take the rifle fairly seriously.(grin)

"Luck" is all in the homework...................

Big Stick,
I have not fired at paper targets that far away. I am sort of trying to figure out just how far, too far realistically is for hunting weight rifles?

At the 400 yard range, I get just about the same results with either my 7mm Rem mag., 270 Win. & 25-06. 10 shots into about 7" groups.
This is from load combinations that each shoot into about 1 3/4" at the 200 yard range.

The 400 yard range is treeless and almost always windy, and of course I could probably shrink my groups a little more by using finer reticles and higher power target scopes.
This is with a more sturdy rest set up than I would be able to hope for in the hunting fields.

I like paper for zero/trajectory dope confirmation and favor reactive targets from then on,unless wishing to confirm something again(paper offers more precision,for reading results). I shoot lotsa steel.

My 7SHAMU on a S/S Model Seven is a 700yd tool,in good conditions. It will peter outta energy/impact velocity,before accuracy.

My Pink 25-284 is [bleep] unreal. It's Juice goes,before connecting is an issue. Both are svelte/compact light rifles and there are several more so configured,in which my faith is great and the KS 25-06AI is pretty flashy too.

On good weather days,all will slick up clay birds and shoot "cleans" for a magazine load at 400yds. Gallon jugs at the 650yd berm,is a given,again assuming favorable conditions.

"Weight" means dick,it's the components and their harmony,that truly matters. My lightest 25-284 thinks it's a 40X and that's OK with me.(grin)

I employ modest glass and never shoot from anything but field rests. Hell,I don't even have a bench at my range and do long range stuff laying prone in the [bleep].

It ain't textbook,but I can repeat results as per my whim and that is the whole point IMHO.................

I previously owned a 257 wby., then had it rebarreled to 7 STW, and I could not get either of these calibers to shoot as small at 200 yards as the 3 examples previously mentioned.

I don't know what they could have done at 400, because they were gone before the 400 yard target range was available.

I had pretty good luck with the 7STW,LOVE the 30STW and like the 257Wby even more.

All were on SUCKS with McMillan's and Leupie glass. They doted on Re-22.

I've shot 1.5" groups at 400yds with the 257Wby and SAAMI chamber...........................