Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Enough energy for elk?

I have shot elk and seen elk shot with a number of different cartridges from the .270 up. Their bullets all had plenty of energy. The question for me these days is not whether the bullet has enough energy, but whether I do, to haul the dang elk out of the hills.

I don't have 1st hand experience with this scenario but if I had to guess I'm comfortable stating that the job can get done (400 yards with an '06) provided that you're a good shot and you're using a quality bullet.

I personally know someone who has taken an elk at 430 yards using an '06 with 180g NP. He told me he dropped him with 1 shot.

This question reminds me of those energy or game weight tables where the 30-06 is suitable for 400 yards but at 401 yds the bullet will bounce off of them.

Well, it's the fault of gun writers, ammo manufacturers, and others who make a big deal about how much energy is needed for X kind of game animal. Life just doesn't work that way.

I have shot a bunch of big game (bigger than deer, that is) at ranges out to 450 uards or so with the standard, 2700-fps 180-grain .30-06. If the bullet goes in the right place, the animal dies quickly. I have yet to see any brand of 180 fail to expand at around 400 yards, or fail to penetrate the vitals.

a little fodder......Terminal ballistics demand that it takes roughly 1000 FT/lbs kinetic to achieve adequate penetration to inflict enough damage to kill a large, soft skinned animal. IE.. Elk/Deer/Man. NOTICE, I do not account for improper shot placement, only for penetration. The sample below is of kinetic energy taken from ballistic charts on soft targets at muzzle through 500 yrds in 100 yrd increments.

30-06 (150 grains @ 2700 FPS): 2428, 2037, 1697, 1403, 1150, 922

Kqw911:

There are some very qualified ballistics experts that frequent this forum. I am not one of them. I can only relate my personal experience and I look for qualified infomation sources to guide my decisions.

One source, presumeably qualified, is the Colorado Division of Wildlife. It's interesting to note that the CO DOW hunting regulations coincide with your citation of 1,000 ft. lbs. impact energy to kill elk. They include that as one of the minimum properties for legal caliber/bullet for elk hunting.

KC

JB, I like your view point on this one. It rings true to so many out here that hunt elk.

On a side note, on another forum I'm on I really find it alarming that guys like myself who use .270's, 06's, and many non magnum calibers for elk hunting get constantly harassed and belittled for our choices. We all state that there is nothing wrong with the big mags, but in the end we choose to use the standard calibers for elk hunting. Most of those that chastise us just cannot wrap their head around the fact that these calibers work. It's such a breathe of fresh air to come here and see that most respect another's choice and are able to see the merits of such.

For me I would personally not have a problem shooting to 350 yards on an elk with my .270 and 150 gr. NP's. Its a shot I'm comfortable with and know that it is enough to do the job.

I also own a .300 WM and have shot one elk with it thus far. Used 180 gr. Winchester Power Points and the shot was 300 yards. Performed flawlessly also. Now I've got the dilemma of choosing which rifle I want to hunt with. Killed bulls with both guns. Tough choice, but I like the fact I'm comfortable and confident with each.

Kelly

Kgw911,

Where did you that about 1000 foot-pounds being necessary for penetration?

I can think of all sorts of examples that prove that assumption wrong, so I'm just wondering where it came from.

These discussions are always entertaining. Whenever I am thinking about getting some super magnum I have to remind myself that the Merriams Elk were wiped out by 30-30s, 44-40s, 38/55, 44 Stevens and a host of other rounds that are considered only good for punching paper now.

I think determining the foots pounds required to kill an elk is probably about as exact a science as determining how many foot pounds are required to "haul the dang thing out of the hills".

(lessee here, 500 pounds of elk X 3 miles X 5280 ft/mile... SHEESH! That's a whole freeking buncha foot pounds)

Royce

In my first response I said it can and might not work. I'll give you an example, The 1st really big bull that I shot was in 1983. He was pumped up and pissed off. I shot him at 150 yards with a 30-06 using 165g Noslers. I hit him 5 times. Twice through the lungs, He still went 1/2 mile with me having to chase him down.

Since then I've killed numerous elk with a 120g Partition from a 25-06 at 300 yards and they have collapsed on the spot. But they were relaxed and not worried about being hunted or in rut.

So was it the difference in the caliber, was it just one bull hyped up on adrenaline and the others being dead before they knew they were hit.

Each animal will be different. A good shot in the boiler room with 1000lbs ( I try to stay over 1500ft/lbs) of energy will usually put an elk down. And a 30-06 can usually do that.

A 30-06 shooting 168g Barnes TSX will have 1568 ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards.

A 300 WSM shooting that same 168g Barnes TSX will have 1875 ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards. You are talking 300 ft/lbs of differnce at 400 yards.

So we consider the previous post about needing more than 1000ft/lbs. Yes the 30-06 has enough energy. If we compare the difference between it an a magnum. Not that much difference in energy.

As I've become a better hunter and have become very successful at harvesting more and bigger elk, I've stopped hunting them with the 25-06. I've also gained 50 lbs from what I weighed when I bought the 25-06 and can tolerate the recoil of the bigger guns better now than I could as a young man. But I can say, that I never lost an elk that I shot at with a 25-06, so I think the caliber and bullet weight is something we argue too much about.

Yep and then some, but 400 is a long shot no matter what the bullet launcher you are using. Its the wind drift that will get you sooner rather than drop. I like the 338 for elk hunting and for moose, for no other reason, I have a 338 that I love to shoot and well since I bought that rifle in 1996 its been my go to for the fool reason, because its what I packed. Of Late the last three years or so I been shooting a 7mm Remingtion Mag again, and I have yet to be able to tell the difference. A 30-06 is about as perfect a North American hunting cartridge as you can get, its even better today because of way better bullets and powders. You can do a tad better with a bigger cartridge, but it will cost you in terms of recoil and rifle weight. And when its all said and done, you would not be under gunned with a 7 x 57 or a 308. The key to elk hunting is to put yourself were the elk are, that seems to be the 2nd hardest part of the program, the first being packing the thing out.

My thinking exactly. I like to call them in to where I can drive up and get them.

No, that'll do it, thank you.

I read an article somewhere in the past (I.m old)about the foot pounds of energy theory as pertains to killing critters. The author made the comparison of a 458 Win and 500 grain solid bullet needed for elephants, if extrapolated down to a whitetail deer, would make the 22 long rifle rimfire the perfect deer cartridge. I have told the true story of a buddy of mine who has killed 25 bull elk with a 30-06, and 165 gr Nosler pt, and has not lost any. Longest shot 430 yards. Take an 06 learn how and when to shoot it, the same as you should with ANY RIFLE, standard or magnum, and you can kill any elk no problem.

Thank you for that. Not a guy who studies tables, just a guy who watched a hunter on a show make a shot I wouldn't have tried, only because I'm not that good of a shot. I think you sniffed out the answer to the question I should have asked better. That being would a 30-06 provide the energy for all things to work as they should with a good shot at 400 yds. I have read the 30-06 has killed a lot of men at greater ranges, but not sure about a 500lb animal.

I hear many call the 30-30 a good 150-200 yard caliber, I would wonder then if that would mean the 30-30 would be a bad choice even for a good shooter at 350 not having the punch to expand a bullet at those ranges.

In other words how does a new hunter go about learning what the 30-06 can do? Certainly we wouldn't want somebody learning by trial and error, and we wouldn't want a new shooter to learn by studying those ballistic tables, so I guess the only thing left to do is come to the 24 campfire and ask rookie questions.

Barkoff, below are my coments on a older thread on this topic.





It is kind of like poker.
You could win a hand with just one Ace (shot placement).
You have a better chance at winning the hand with a pair of Aces (Shot placement and premium bullet)
You have an even better chance at winning with a set of Aces (Shot placement, premium bullet and lots of energy)
You have an fantastic chance at winning with four Aces (Shot placement, premium bullets, lots of energy and good size caliber for the game hunted)

I personally like going All-In with as many Aces as I can get.
Heck, if the elk wants to come within 25 feet of me like the last cow I shot, it is like a King kicker.



To be completely honest, I am tired of people getting on their high horse about shot placement. We hopefully all know that shot placement is the most important aspect. I doubt and hope that noone on here is intentionally making poor shots or aiming at the hind quarter on broadside shots.

When you are talking shots out at 400 yards, it is obviously important to know your own shooting capability. I am not telling you anything you don't already know. But think about MOA. If your gun shoots 1" groups at 100 yards, at 400 yards, that group obviously grows to 4". Now with wind, that can be measurable, but not 100% predictable throughout bullet travel, that group grows even more. What I am getting at is even with a perfect hold and shot, there is generally at least a 6" variation at those yardages....which is in my opinion very optimistic.
That could mean rib cage, shoulder, better or worse.
I try to make sure I get as many Aces in my hand as possible before finding myself in the situation.

I am not going to give an energy number, because I go higher than any of the numbers quoted on this forum. Plus, as my comments in the old thread, it is not that simple as to just give an energy number.....you must consider energy, caliber, momentum, etc. etc.
Wound Channel is the key and I don't have a formula derived for that yet.

For what it's worth....
I shoot a 7mm WSM with 160 grain Accubonds for Whitetail sized animals. I shoot a 325 WSM with 200 grain Accubonds for Elk and bigger animals.

Yes. First bull elk I ever saw killed was shot, twice, at a bit over 350 yards (pre rangefinder, we paced it over pretty level ground). He was shot with a M70 30/06,3X scope,and factory 150 WW Power Points. I watched through bino's as my buddy hit too far back; the bull hunched, walked off a bit...Second shot, the hit was directly back of the front legs,centered in the chest. His legs buckled immediately and he collapsed.It was all over inunder 10 seconds.

BTW, this was a wood stocked M70,and the scope had no power rings on it

The 30/06 has been around killing big game for over 100 years; a lot of that game has been a lot bigger than any elk,and it just continues to roll stuff.With todays bullets,it is better than it has ever been.

Wow. Well said.

Cacciatore,

I guess I'm going to hasve to disagree with your little essay, on several grounds:

1) I have killed a number of big game animals out to 450 yards or so with rifles that wouldn't average much better than 1-1/2" at 100 yards. This does NOT mean the bullet can land anywhere up to 4 times that much at 400 (6"). Instead it means the variation FROM POINT OF AIM is only 3", half of 6". Every shot landed within 3" of where I intended. Super rifle accuracy is not necessary for shooting elk at 400 yards, or even mule deer.

2) If your idea of s super-powerful cartridge is a .325 WSM with 200-grain bullets, well then go ahead and think so. But the .325 isn't all that much more powerful than the .30-06, even on paper, and .015" difference in bullet diameter means zip in real life. Despite what Winchester and some gun writers would like us to think, the .325 is no .338 Winchester Magnum.

If you really want to move up the power ladder SIGNIFICANTLY you'll have to use something bigger than a .325.