Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters to 458 & Mule Deer, CRF v. PF

Phil,

It's not that we are willing to risk our lives on second rate equipment. It's just that we don't see any evidence that we are using second rate equipment.

Most of the actual failures (not hypothetical ones) that have been posted here seem to involve short stroking CRF rifles. I agree with the posts to the effect that this is caused by improper bolt technique (the death grip).

BTW: In all my years of hunting and shooting I can only recall one feeding foulup while hunting. A Mauser action (CRF) failed to extract a fired 30-06 case. The case was loaded fairly hotly (by me) and had been neck sized only, not full length sized.

I can't remember the last time I heard about any Alaskan guides being nailed by bear. Is it that common?

Mr. Shoemaker,

Does it really cost a year's wage for a reliable DG rifle? Or is that for a reliable rifle that is also sexy, purty, etc?

Phil, I realize that in your occupation you are facing danger with greater frequency than those of us that go on annual trips for such game. Doesn't mean you value your life anymore than I value mine. I am just asking a simple question whether or not a person like myself can get this level of reliability in function and feed without spending 12 thousand dollars on a modified Model 70. I am not suggesting that a PF will do this. If that is an impossible task, so be it.

Jeff, I'm not asking about anything with fancy wood, engraving etc.....I'm speaking of a rife that is similar to the Echols Legend, a modified 70 action, match grade type barrel, McMillan stock........you get the picture.

You don't have to. I have to what ostensibly can be called three (3) rifles suitable for DG, a Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby, a Model 70 Super Express in 375 H&H magnum and a Winchester Custom Shop pre-64 in 338 Win Mag. The Ruger needed minor tuning, feed ramp, rails & extractor polished and a 3/32" ivory bead installed on the front sight and a gold leaf outline to the rear sight. Work was performed by Mark Penrod.

I also sent the 375 to him and all he did was replace the extractor with a Williams at my request, even though I had no problems. The 338 is "as is" from the Custom Shop. Total cost of Gunsmithing was under 200 bucks. BTW, the PH I hunt with John Sharp, has two DG rifles. A beautiful 470 Rigby and a PUSH FEED post 64-70. The latter had a bomb proof express sight installed and that's it. D'Arcy is a MASTER and were money no object, I'd have a safe full of his rifles; in wood of course! jorge

No - and so it does not become common, we continue to think, plan and train for that eventuality. In bear country, it can happen, anytime. Be ready or not. Your guide must be.

A little anecdote from AK Dall Sheep hunting not long ago. The guide I know personally. I know the country well in which it happend. I will tell enough to make a point.
The hunter has his sheep rifle slung to his back pack and climbs with his two sticks. The guide has left his rifle in camp.
Reasons were his own. He has a walking cane. Away they hike. 100 yards there is a sow. Her cubs are even further away. There is no brush, just open slopes. She decides and charges. Guide steps in front of hunter who trys to get at the rifle. Bear comes, Guide swings cane. Bear veers and gets carried past hunters down the slope. Bear turns around, Hunter has rifle out finally, Bear comes again up the slope. Hunter shoots from the hip. Hits bear on the flank. This turns her, she gathers cubs and all take off.

Lessons learned:

Better to carry a rifle in bear country many years and not need it than need it once and not have it.

Let us make no mistake. The above incident and the outcome was all the sows calling. Hunter and guide at no point had any consequential input. The fact that they are allright is owned to luck. That is not the way it is supposed to be.

Most of my collegues would not have been caught w/o a rifle.
I would not.
These same will not be caught with a rifle they do not trust.
I will not.

Trust - the central word in the crf/pf discussion. Trust forms with use and time on a reliable rifle.

So,

How does the Sako (mine is a L61R) fit in this scheme?

Is it really king of the push feeds? Or, it it still not on par with a CRF?

Time will tell.

Mauser CRF 98 and some designs have been used enough over time by enough PHs (who are the one, who get in hairy situations on any kind of regularity) in enough such situations to have proven trustworthy through reliability.

That is all we are discussing here. Not enough such personal have yet decided to regularly use Sakos - so there is no reputation to be discussed (yet). Who knows. Right now, CRFs are regarded as standart, execpt for those tanzanian PHs who insist on a double (we can leave that can of worms for when this threat peters out ).

In all fairness, we need to keep from generalising too much. Everyone rifle needs to prove itself regardless of design.
The sum total of such proven rifles of one design may eventually lead to legacy.

I have a 9,3x64 Mauser on a DWM 98 action that I very much trust.
Still, for working pigs in Germany and guiding in AK, I reach for Marlin 1895 G .45-70. Why? Familiarity and trust. Them being so handy helps to.

SuperT: Thank you....it's a byproduct of what I do for a living; if I can't express a view in writing....I lose

I doubt that cost is proportional to how well your rifle will function. I'm sure that Mr. Shoemaker didn't pay the equivalent to a Legend when he built his 'Ugly' 458...he just built it so he was 100% confident in it's reliability.

Very true

My first cousin and his son (15 at the time) were out hunting I believe when a big Brown bear made a charge. Larry fired a shot into the ground in front of the bear and the bear stopped just feet away. My cousin then ejected the spent case and picked up as fresh round with bolt and slowly started the bolt forward in this tense situation. The rounds nose hit the feed ramp and jammed. What rifle you ask? It was a Mauser actioned 458 win, no the controll round feeds are not perfect by any means.

I have actually looked at this rifle in question and if memory serves me correctly there was a rough spot between where the magazine box meets the feed ramp. That is not uncommon with cheaper Mausers but as I said before - as long as we are comparing PROPERLY built actions - The overwhelming consensus among professionals is for CRF actions.

It's interesting to me that most folks I personally know who dismiss CRF as being irrelevant or the weapons prone to malfunction are folks who have had problems with some really third rate examples of CRF ranging from junk military rifles to improperly set up CRF rifles or folks who make a livlihood in writing ad copy for contemporary firearms.

In the same vein, I think it just as silly that so many folks who insist on CRF absolutely insist on damning decent push feed actions which are perfectly acceptable for all sorts of use including dangerous game. The kicker that all to often goes unsaid is that rifles of both types need a number of modifications if they are going to be suitable for dangerous game. And most folks don't really hunt dangerous game---much as some try to force fit feral hogs into that category. Hell, once upon a time, only elephant were really considered dangerous game per se in Africa. Lion were vermin. Buffalo and rhino mostly a nuisance and the former a source of biltong.

Guides and guide's rifles are a different matter and all too many sport hunters want a rifle that they can't handle effectively because that's what the professional hunters use. Or worse, "just in case" when reality is, most guides aren't going to put week-long tourist hunters with plains game licenses anywhere near dangerous critters that aren't on their permits. Many do themselves a real injustice since a lighter rifle that they can actually hit with under field conditions would give heaps more satisfactory service. That was the great sense in recommending the wonderful old 375 H&H as the best choice for a sport hunter in Africa for so many years before game Darwinized into Kevlar hides.

That being said all of my 30-odd bolt guns are CRF including walk-about varmint rifles and I don't personally care to own any of the push feed rifles. As a corollary to that, and again, personally, there are also very few of the contemporary controlled round feed Mauser-type actions that I'd care to own and am content with my pre-War Obendorfs, slightly post-war BRNO's and a host of 1940's to early-50's vintage Model 70's plus several Mannlicher-Schoenauers. None of them are 10 thousand YankeeDollar guns but I've never experienced any problems with them from Alaska to Africa and a sizable part of the US.

Don't see why both sides can't accept the advantages of CRF when the weapon is properly built. Stupid not to do so. Old Peter Paul did a pretty good job of putting together an outstanding, reliable military rifle when he designed the 98. We tend to forget that the wholesale move to push feed actions following Remington's production of the 721/722 series was purely and simply a matter of reducing production costs and selling it as producing a stronger action.

Now we have generations whose only real experience with rifles is the push feed action and they wonder what all the furor is about with "old guns" and lack of reliability of their push feeds which demonstrably work well enough for them. In truth, as much junk on the current market well demonstrates, almost anything will serve for the fellow who shoots a handful of rounds a year. All the rest of the discussion stems from enthusiasts counting angels on the head of pin who because of a penchant for one thing insist on damning the other irrespective of reality. Gets a bit silly, especially with the minimal experience reflected in making the choice for many folks.

Doesn't bother me atall to see a fellow on the range or in the bush with a push feed rifle and I feel no need to lecture him about his sins. From the matter of my taste and needs though, I'll ride along with my late friend, Finn Aagaard, when he wrote, "Make Mine Mauser."

What else needs to be said?

-

so back to my Sako L61R question...

Not really a DG rifle because it is not CRF?

I have seen this happen,on a M98 action sporterized by none other than P.O. Ackley,it worked fine with the 30-06 Barrel installed by Ackley. When I had it rebarreled to 280 Ackley,it jammed as described.

I have always considered my self fairly neutral on the subject of CRF vs. PF,but I thought about it and realized every single big bore bolt that I own is CRF. Browning Sarari in 338,Dakotas in 330 and 375,and a CZ in 416.

The only serious charges that I have ever stopped were with a PF Remington and a Marlin 45-70,but now days I would likely use one of my big CRF bolt guns if life and limb were at risk again.

Here, let the Hillbilly from Montana settle this once and for all!!!


Its just like Gramma always used to say.


PLUNGERS ARE FOR TOILETS!!!

By nature I'm a pretty politically correct kinda guy so I have tried to stay out of this old arguement like I usually do, so I have to tell all of you that I LOVE push feed big game rifles, they make such good trout line sinkers, not sure which make the best sinkers, mossberg shotguns or Pushfeed rifles, probably a toss up.! Thanks for your business!