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#2819861 - 02/16/09 45/70 side by side  
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Abner Offline
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After four years of waiting, I finally got my 45/70 double. Wouldn't you know it, it's been raining cats and dogs since. Maybe I'll get a chance to shoot it this weekend. Anyway, here is the question. The gun comes with an 11mm dovetail scope mounting rail. Who, if anyone, makes scope rings and bases that will fit the 11mm dovetail mounting rail, that can take the recoil of the 45/70. All I have been able to find for the 3/8", 11mm dovetail are mounts for .22cal. rifles and airguns. I would prefer a quick disconnect set of rings, but that might be to much to ask. Any thoughts?

CMG 300 BP

#2820108 - 02/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Welcome to the 'Fire, Abner. Figure out how to poast pictures and put a couple up for us to see.

What make is the rifle?


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

Brother Keith

#2820190 - 02/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: the_shootist]  
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Thanks for the welcome Shootist. My new gun is a Remington spr221 made by Baikal. It's made in Russia. I will post some pictures soon.

#2820200 - 02/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Sounds like Baikal MP 221 ARTEMIDA. They make a mount for it, but it is not QD.

Some German manufac. makes a QD but it is very pricey. If wanted I can get you more info.

If it is a Baikal (which I almost bet) it might be the best bet to take a good quality 11 mm to weaver profil adapter and have a gunsmith permanetly attach it (if it fits-rail would have to be high enough).

The 11 mm Rail is 1) not cross sloted 2) not very precisely machined on Baikals (return to zero would be a problem) 3) generally not common enough in big game rifles for manufactures to provide solutions.

I do have a Baikal Single Shot .30-06 that I went through with this. The factory rail was worthless. In the end I took it of and attached a steel aftermarket 11 mm Rail, cross slotted it and used Warne Rings (permanents) to scope.

I wish you great shooting and hunting with the rifle and look forward to some pics.

Perhaps I would also reconsider the scoping at all?



Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.



#2820334 - 02/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Ready]  
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medicman Offline
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Abner
Welcome. the_shootist was just the other day suggesting I look at that rifle as I have a deep seated desire for a double, but a deeper seated desire to not remortgage my house. I do not have a stocking gun shop to go and examine one (play with). How does it feel to shoulder, and what are the triggers like. I am a long time fan of the 45/70 so this may be an alternative scratch to my itch.
Randy


Praise the Lord for full Salvation
Christ Still lives upon the throne
And I know the blood still cleansess
Deeper than the sin has gone
Lester Roloff
Alpha

#2822265 - 02/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Ready]  
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Hi cmg - Yes it is a Baikal MP 221 ARTEMIDA. I have seen the mount that Baikal makes, and don't really like it. It looks to be very high and kind of strange looking to me. I was hoping for something a bit more traditional. If a solid mount, rather than a QD, is the way I have to go, that would be fine but I do really want to put a scope on it even though it is a short range gun. I just grew up with a scope and like them on all my guns. I was thinking of a 1-5X20. I think it would look great on top of those two big barrels.
I like the idea of the 11mm to weaver mount. If I was sure the converting base was strong enough. I will look into it. Thanks.
I hope tp get some pics. this weekend (scopeless ofcourse).

#2822315 - 02/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: medicman]  
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Hi medicman - I bought this gun for exactly that reason. I have always wanted one but never thought I could afford one. Well, now there is one in my safe! The craftsmanship isn't what it would be on a $5,000-$10,000 double, but if it shoots close to where I aim it I will be good enough for me. I'm already planning a cow elk hunt with it for this year!
The triggers are not the best, not even close, but I knew they wouldn't be. There is a lot of creep in both and are a bit heavy, but then again we are not talking about a long range tack driver. In my opinion, they are good enough for what I will use it for.
You asked how it shoulders? Mine is awesome. I had a limbsaver recoil pad put on it and a 1/4" spacer to make it a tad longer. The first time I put it to my shoulder I thought I saw a cape buff in the sights!:-) I'll never get to Africa, but this gun sure sparks the imagination.

#2822471 - 02/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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I will be curious to see how it shoots. I had my eyes on those and was told by my local dealer they were not regulated well. I looked at 2 of them at a local gun show, but passed on them. If yours shoots, I may have to get one. Love the look and feel of a double, but like most here, do not have the $ for a great one.


Salmonhead
#2822588 - 02/18/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: salmonhead]  
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Can't seem to find any pricing on the thing --- anyone got an idea what they go for???


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

Brother Keith

#2822758 - 02/18/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: salmonhead]  
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It will indeed be interesting to see how well I can regulate the barrels. There is an adjustment jack screw between the barrels that adjusts the left one. So far, from what I've heard on other forums, whith a little work you can get them pretty close. If it ever stops raining here, I'll go and find out.

Bravo

#2822769 - 02/18/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: the_shootist]  
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Abner Offline
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shootist - When I first started seeing them listed several years ago by EEA arms, they were under $600. When they finally came out under the Remington name, they were between $860 and $1,100 depending on where you looked. I got mine for $1,000 and was the last of four the gun shop ordered. They sold as fast as they came in. As far as my gun shop knows, they can't get anymore. Remington is no longer selling them and EEA is once again having trouble getting them into the US.

#2829910 - 02/20/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Abner Offline
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Well, I fianlly shot my new gun today. Two thumbs up! Three thumbs up actually because refering back to my first post, my gunsmith has some old style Warne QD rings he is going to mount for me. He has some on his 458 lott he takes to Africa. If they work on that beast, they should work for me.

Anyway, to the range. I was shooting the Remington 405gr load. Function was flawless. Easy open, easy close, and the barrels regulated just fine. After sighting in the right, the first shot from the left hit a full 12"-13" to the left. I was wondering if I was going to be able to move it that far right, but actually moved it to far and had to come back left a bit. It did prove to me that the barrels are indeed adjustable and regulate correctly. The only flaw I saw in the gun was that the back sight had to be pushed way to the right to get it sighted in. It looks kind of funky sitting that far over, but it is sighted in. The last six shots (three from each barrel) hit in a four inch group at fifty yards. That was encouraging considering it was the first time I had shot the gun, and that I can't remember the last time I shot open sights. I'm pretty sure I can cut that group size down a bunch once I get the scope mounted.

The gun is rated to #31,900psi. I have seen many loads that are at #28,000psi that push the 405gr to 1500-1600fps. This is where I hope to be with my reloads. The recoil will be more than the loads I shot today, but considering that todays factory loads were suprisingly mild in recoil, I don't see my reloads as a problem.

If you want a sids by side, but don't want to spend a ton of money, I would recommend getting one of these. It isn't a high dollar high craftsmanship gun, but it is functional and fun, and I know mine will be in my hands on many hunts in the future.

I have some pictures, but can't figure out how to post them. If someone will tell me how, I will be glad to post them.

#2833449 - 02/22/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Here are a couple pictures of Abner's double 45-70. Sorry I couldn't get them all up as I am having "network errors." mad

Here's hoping for the best.

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

These are the two best ones, I think. There is another one that shows a picture of a target, and I'll load it when my network comes back. wink


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

Brother Keith

#2842668 - 02/25/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: the_shootist]  
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Thanks Shootist for posting the pics. They actually look better than they did in my file. Go figure.

#2842676 - 02/25/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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I have several files, and they all sharpen things. GROAN! grin


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

Brother Keith

#2843186 - 02/26/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: the_shootist]  
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Keith that one is bad even for you

Randy

Last edited by medicman; 02/26/09.

Praise the Lord for full Salvation
Christ Still lives upon the throne
And I know the blood still cleansess
Deeper than the sin has gone
Lester Roloff
#2845373 - 02/26/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.

Samuel Adams

#2845447 - 02/26/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Strider]  
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Strider - Thanks, yes they will work. They are what I was going to get, but my gunsmith has Quick Disconnect rings that mount directly to the dovetail.

#2848072 - 02/28/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Here is some new info. Remington has dropped all, but two of the baikals. (Two shotguns) EAA has picked them back up under a sister company called US Sporting Goods. This also includes the old charles daly 98's. There are three different grades of doubles. The cheap, medium, and expensive so to speak. The cheap comes in 30-06 and 45-70. The med. and expensive come in 45-70, 375 H-H, 450NE, 416 Rigby, 470NE, 500NE, 600NE and maybe one or to others that I can't remeber. The med. and expensive are just finish differences. The med. runs in the $2500 range and the expensive in the $4100 range and the cheap in the $1100 area. Hope this helps. 358mt

#2848125 - 02/28/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: 358mt]  
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358mt - That is interesting news, Thanks. Do you have a web page address to where we can see them? I googled US Sporting Goods, but didn't find them. This could get interesting, a 450NE-600NE for #2,500-$4,100! They would sell truck loads! I hope they heve better luck getting them than they did with the first ones.

#2848406 - 02/28/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Abner There is no web site that I have found. But i have seen the cataloge. The prices are great if it works out. A gunsmith friend of mine order two of the cheap 45-70's and i think maybe a 500NE in the medium grade for a custmer. I'm thinking of the cheap 06 and the med. 450NE myself. I showed him a pic and a small artical from one of my dealer magazine; that was talking about the shot show. He love's the baikals and EAA guns so he stated making some calls. Also the cheaps have the regulating screaw but the higher prices don't so they most be factory regulated. They will deffently sell a pile of them if it works out. 358mt

#2852372 - 03/01/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: 358mt]  
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OK - Next question. I'm looking to reload for my 45/70 S/S. If I see a load for cast bullets of 405grs, can I use the same loading for a jacketed bullet of the same weight? In other words, is there any difference in pressure when using cast vs jacketed bullets with the same powder and powder amount? Thanks

#2853587 - 03/02/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Originally Posted by Abner
OK - Next question. I'm looking to reload for my 45/70 S/S. If I see a load for cast bullets of 405grs, can I use the same loading for a jacketed bullet of the same weight? In other words, is there any difference in pressure when using cast vs jacketed bullets with the same powder and powder amount? Thanks


No. You will have higher pressure with the jacketed bullet.

#2853713 - 03/02/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Vic_in_Va]  
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Most reloading manuals give jacketed bullet specs. Do not be afraid os the cast loads they are spectacular. Always use the springfield loads until confirmed by manufacturer that higher pressure loads are safe. I shot a bull moose a few years back with 500 grain hard cast, water squelched over 70 gr Geox FF that went in left rear hip( I know there are no hips on the front) and exited rt front shoulder taking out both joints and about six inches of spine. never found the bullet to see how it did. I kinda guess I know.

I have a Lyman cast reloading manual that has a lot of really good info if you decide to go old school.
Randy


Praise the Lord for full Salvation
Christ Still lives upon the throne
And I know the blood still cleansess
Deeper than the sin has gone
Lester Roloff
#2866448 - 03/06/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: medicman]  
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Medicman - I don't know much (anything) about cast bullets. What is the benifits of shooting them? Are the suposed to act like solids, or expand? Are they cheaper or expensive? I know I don't want to pour my own, so are there any good ones that you can buy? Thanks, Abner

#2866705 - 03/07/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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sorry for delay
I cast because it is fun and pride of making the bullets you harvest game with.

they act more like solids than expanding, but start at .458" to start with so pretty impressive performance.

Randy










i


Praise the Lord for full Salvation
Christ Still lives upon the throne
And I know the blood still cleansess
Deeper than the sin has gone
Lester Roloff
#2868430 - 03/07/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: medicman]  
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I have a 405 gr mould from Lee that drops bullets weighing 407 grains cast from wheel weights, and dropped in water. They are plenty hard for my loads, and are very accurate. I'm tossing mine downrange at 1300 ft/sec, and they penetrate well.

You live in the USA, so there are lots of good sources of quality lead bullets for almost all calibres and cartridges.


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

Brother Keith

#3179671 - 07/25/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: the_shootist]  
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Scope Rings for the Baikal/EEA/USSG/Remington SPR22/MP221

As you can see from the heading, this double rifle has been imported and sold by several different entities, although it appears EEA of Rockledge, FL is in back of all of them. Presently, USSG, Inc. seems to be offering them, and the Internet auction and sales sites offer them continuously. They are currently available in 30-06, and 45-70. Too bad the 9.3X74R version is not now imported, although Baikal sells them in various other countries. With it now being loaded in the US, it would be a wonderful, utilitarian double of intersting potential. The great virtue of the MP221 Artemida/SPR 22 is its entry level cost of under $1000 for the 45-70 and under $800 for the '06.

Another excellent cartridge which is offered by Baikal in this rifle, but not in the States, is the Russian battle cartridge, the 7.62X54R. It is about the same power level as the '06, rimmed, which is good for doubles, and best of all, the ammo is readily available at a very low price, in quantities. You might have noticed that the cheap '06 miltary ammo has essentially disappeared, unlikely to return. The 7.62X54R is well behind that cycle and likely to be with us for a long time into the future, based on the flood of rifles being imported for that cartridge.

Now, as to the scope rings. I have a double Remington/Baikal rifle in each caliber. Both are scoped. The 11 mm rail the rifle has is an airgun rail. Scoffing at that? Don't. Airguns are known for viscious, scope-busting recoil that loosens rings, as the airgun recoils forward and backward with each shot. Of the two different rings I have, the one made by Beeman for their high grade air rifles is extraordinally rugged. It is heavily made, with lots of screws to hold it, AND it has a stud that fits down into a slot in the rail itself, effectively keeping it from creeping. I'd be shocked if this thing doesn't hold well.

I see a lot of chatter on Internet sites the rifle might take a .22 caliber set of rings. That is mistaken. The .22 rail is 9 mm and has an arched top. I originally tried a set of .22 cal Leupolds on my '06, and it gripped poorly, but worse, was noticably cocked off to the side. The .22 cal rail is round-topped, but the 11 mm rail is flat-topped. I personally would judge .22 cal rings as unsuitable on this rifle from their appearance. Further, they lack the fast-holding, protruding stud at the base.

BTW, I notice a lot of chatter about the operating pressure level suitable for the 45-70 version. Because the owner's manual has the SAAMI compliant warning on it, many are equating the strength level of the action with the "Trapdoor Springfield". Obviously, a pretty silly thought that a modern arm made more than 100 years after the Trapdoor and chambered in the '06 would have equal action strength with the Trapdoor. Rebarrel a Trapdoor to 30-06 and see how that works for you. By far the best exploration of the subject on the loads suitable and safe for the 45-70 version is on www.kifaruforums.com. I'm always interested in feedback from you, but please do not send me messages on this point unless you have read the mentioned materials so you can see I have been exposed to "bolt thrust" and all the other considerations of double barrel rifle action strength. AND, remember, the SAAMI warning is present for the Marlin and Ruger rifles as well, although both are commonly used with above SAAMI loads, and I'm not hearing reports of rifle or human carnage from this activity.

These Baikal/Remington double rifles have been a pleasant surprise, with a lot of value for the price. Short-comings exist, but one can get into FUN double rifles for LOW MONEY. That's been my experience.
martyBoy

#3181042 - 07/25/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Have you thought of using open sights rather than a scope, as Carl suggests? From your experience, maybe replacing the factory sights with a better set of express shallow-V rear and a good front might be a good investment.

I haven't taken the double plunge yet but if I do, I plan for a large bore, irons-only set up. Just seems natural and harkens to 'Old Africa'. smile


Lord, make me fast & accurate... Let my aim be true. Grant me victory over my foes ... Let not my last thought be, If I only had my gun. And Lord, if today is truly the day that you call me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass. LTC J. Cooper
#3181304 - 07/25/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Why would anyone need a second barrel if the first one is chambered for .45/70? grin Just kidding around. Glad you got your double and hope that it brings lots of enjoyment.


Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

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Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
#3182295 - 07/26/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: 5sdad]  
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MartyBoy - Thanks for the posting. I started this thread a while ago when I first recieved my Rem 45/70 side by side. Since then I have shot it more than all my others combined. What fun! I had a set of Warne QD rings put on it and moutned a Simmons 1.5X-5X scope on it. Thru reloading, I have found a load that shoots to the same horizontal point, with one barrel shooting about 3" higher than the other at 75 yards. I'm shooting the Rem 405gr. bullet. The load pretty much duplicates factory loads which is plenty for what I will hunt with it. Best thing about this load, is that it shoots well with all the pressure off both barrels. The jack screw isn't pushing on them at all, free floating if you will.
I was interested in reading the posting you mentioned on www.kifaruforums.com, but could not find it. what heading is it under?
I have read bad reports about this gun, but the vast majority of them are from people who have never even shot one. I have no regrets about getting mine. The triggers could use some work, and they will get some, but other than that, I say to those who bad mouth them to get one in their hands and shoot it. I think they will change their mind.
Mine will see action on deer and bear this season. I can't wait to look down those big barrels and see them pointed at game!

#3184909 - 07/27/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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I found US Sporting Goods' website by guessing:

www.ussginc.com

The new double rifles are made in Italy, and feature a (gasp) single trigger.

JV


Presidents come and go, but entitlements are forever-Michael Medved

Our forefathers would be shooting by now
#3185480 - 07/27/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Don't see the Baikal Rifle topic but here is the forum:

http://www.kifaruforums.net/

dai

#3189604 - 07/29/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: dai_sca]  
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I too have a Reminton S/S made by Baikal. It's probably the most fun rifle to shoot I own. It's a 45-70, and quite surpisingly has a highly figured piece of walnut on it. Wish I had bought the 30-06 version of it to when I had the chance.


`Bring Enough Gun`
#3198386 - 08/01/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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For those of you enthusiasts for .45-70 SxS Rifles, there is a custom with a buy now price of 3,000.00 at Gunbroker:

http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=135483720

There is a reserve, here are sellers comments:

What I have here is a 45-70/ 300 , Double rifle. It was built custom for my Hound Hunting habit. A fellow in Iowa built it upon request - it has turned down light weightbarrels; if I remember correctly they are douglas, and they are 20 inches long.The length of pull is 14 1/2 incdhes to the front trigger. It is regulated at 35 yards and is within an inch.This rifle is aquiped with express sights, which have not been filed yet. I used this bear to hunt bear with my hounds. Is has been very efficient. What you see is what you get. It is in a hand made Juniper wood box. Please call with serious inquiry, 541-419-9817

#3234709 - 08/17/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: dai_sca]  
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Somebody used to sleeve the barrels on a Savage shotgun if I remember right? This would get you into a double rifle cheap!
whelennut


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
#3262518 - 08/28/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: medicman]  
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northcountry Offline
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End of the Oregon Trail

medicman what do you figure the velocity was for that load?
If it was over 1600fps that is plenty bad medicine for any thing getting in front of it. Cheers NC


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SUM QUOD SUM........HOMINEM TE ESSE MEMENTO
#3263035 - 08/28/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: northcountry]  
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medicman Offline
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Originally Posted by northcountry

medicman what do you figure the velocity was for that load?
If it was over 1600fps that is plenty bad medicine for any thing getting in front of it. Cheers NC


I will look up my notes I think it was close to 1500 but will confirm
Randy


Praise the Lord for full Salvation
Christ Still lives upon the throne
And I know the blood still cleansess
Deeper than the sin has gone
Lester Roloff
#3277054 - 09/04/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: medicman]  
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MartyBoy Offline
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Abner, and others who have asked about finding the kifaruforums discussion on allowable pressures of the Baikal/Remington SPR22/MP221 double rifle, here is the link, hopefully, to this most interesting forum.

www.kifaruforums.net/showthread.php?t=6591&highlight=spr22&page=3

In the event this does not take you there, to page 3, search "Allowable pressure Sparton double rifle" Note that Spartan is misspelled, but do not correct. Get ready for a great ride if you want to know more on the subject and all the blather on 45-70 SAAMI pressures seems inadequate, the type often seen on this subject.
BTW, Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore ammo, and a stand-up guy, confirmed for me recently the comments he made on this thread at kifaru 5 years ago. And I think Buffalo Bore knows a little something about potent 45-70 ammo.
I'm not really a big 45-70 fan and would have desired a British cartridge in my SPR 22, but I understand the need to sell guns and the 45-70 will do that. I've had a Ruger #1 Tropical in 45-70 for 25 years and a Remington Rolling Block with a Numrich barrel and custom fittings even longer. I have not shot them much, though I did make up a 350 grain load for the #1 with 3031 which was a real rocker.
One of the amusing topics on forums concerns whether a 45-70 can be a .458 Win Mag. Now, that is amusing, as it is not possible. But I think it begs the real question. The real question is to what extent a 45-70 can and is properly used for dangerous game, especially in Africa. That,...is a subject of ferocious controversy. You know the beat, the lever action/Ruger #1 guys want to blast dinosuars with it and the British rifle snobs with little practical 45-70 experience claim the round is a 'damned good woodchuck" cartridge out to 50 yards. All delicious stuff of course, but lacking in detail. I do note that in the last few years the boys at Rifle magazine have shot dangerous beasts in Africa with their 45-70 and they are still alive.
But I prefer far better authority than most. I direct you to John Pondoro Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges. With all due respect to Craig Boddington, his African experience, his two Safari Rifles books, which are terrific, and a man who always is a gentleman and makes time for us little guys, I still think the 25 years Taylor spent hunting Africa makes him my expert.
The book has a page on the .450 Black Powder Express, the round popular at the turn of the last century and shooting light-for-caliber bullets of 270-365 grains. The 365 gr load was at 1700 fps and produces 2,340 pounds of ME. Taylor says the following on this round:
"I have used all four loads on different game and found them most satisfactory."
"I killed elephant, rhino, and buffalo with the 365-gr. hardened lead bullet, and lion with the soft solid lead bullet of the same weight..."
Interesting. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore loads a 430 grain LBT hardened bullet at 1900fps, with 3,500 ME, which he says can be used safely in the SPR22. Now, this is a much more potent load than Taylor's .450 BPE, which he found "most satisfactory" and we are to believe the modern 45-70 can't be used on big game? Doesn't sound logical. At the same time I recognize a "margin for error" inherent in more powerful loads, as did Taylor, as he later used more powerful rounds. Still, the modern 45-70 in the SPR22 gives comfort as a powerful round, while assuring a full recoil response in a 7.5 lb SPR22 rifle. It sure feels powerful!

Last edited by MartyBoy; 09/04/09. Reason: syntax
#3290970 - 09/09/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: MartyBoy]  
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Abner Offline
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Well done MartyBoy - Both your post and the link are the best response I have seen for this gun and its allowable pressure. Personally, I think people get to caught up in the pressure/velocity debate, and this particular rifle has been at the front of that debate since we all started hearing about them. Really, I don't care what the max pressure is. My loads shoot great and will penetrate anything I will ever shoot with it, and then tear up the hillside behind the critter. In my opinion, this gun was not ment to go up against African dangerous game, but if someone wants to take it there, go for it...if it's legal there at all. Anyway, thanks for finally giving some intelegent helpfull info on the subject.
It was interesting to hear that Mr. Sundles said that his Buff Boar 430gr. load would be safe in this gun. I can asure you, they will never be shot in my gun. I like my shoulder just fine the way it is thank you. :-)

#3291056 - 09/10/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Kodiakisland Offline
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AK..CO..MO..CO..EU..AR..next??...
Theres one on gunbroker now with a buy now price of $899. Might be a good deal for someone looking for one.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139683217


Don't just be a survivor, be a competitor.
#3303105 - 09/14/09 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Kodiakisland]  
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brinky72 Offline
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I've watched TV shows with people shooting big game in Africa with a 45-70 guide gun and buff bore loads. I think they shot Hippo, Buff and what not. Also I believe the Buffalo Bore ammo is a heat treated cast bullet traveling at what they determined to be an "optimal velocity" not just slung at the highest velocity they could squeeze out of the old girl. Not too slow, not too fast but just right. So, maybe they could be safe in the Spartan SXS. It's no mystery that a quality cast bullet with big shoulders put in the right spot can be quite an impressive and devastating load. With the way the 45-70 is loaded today I have no doubts in the hand of a experienced AFRICAN hunter it will get the job done. Is that me? I have no desire to go to Africa and hunt an animal the size of a house with anything. I don't even want to think of all the shots you need to get before you even get on the plane. Did that once in the military in preparation for desert warfare. Couldn't sit right for days. I'll stay right here in the good ol' US of A . If I want to hunt something big with my 45-70 I'll get a bear permit, they can get pretty big or go on a bison hunt. Enough gun? I believe W.D.M. Bell shot a few elephants with a 7X57 (275 Rigby) back in the day.

#5410175 - 07/11/11 It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: Abner]  
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pricedo Offline
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If you're looking for a knock-off Westley Richards double this ain't it.
Looks, shoots and handles like a pig on a shovel.
A waste of money.
The damn thing weighs 12 pounds !
Would make a great pumping handle for a car jack. sick


Proud Life Member of the NRA & GOA
#5412735 - 07/11/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: pricedo]  
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Abner Offline
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Pricedo - I'm surprised to see this post is still here. I started it two years ago. To each their own I guess, but I still really enjoy my S/S Remington 45/70. No, it isn't a Westley Richards, but it it was never meant to be. What it is, is a S/S that is just a bunch of fun to shoot. I'm still getting about 1 1/2" groups at seventy five yards from both barrels. I've taken both black bear and elk with it in the last two years and still get a kick out of taking it to the range. It will never measure up to even the next level S/S, but one thing for sure, it's much more than a car jack handle and really, it only weighs about 8 lbs. with a 1.5-5X scope. By the way, how does a pig on a shovel handle?

#5412843 - 07/11/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: Abner]  
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Is that 1 1/2" grouping both barrels combined?

#5412911 - 07/11/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: mauserand9mm]  
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Snowwolfe Offline
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Used to own one of these rifles and still own one in 30-06. The 45-70 was quickly sold because the barrels are so thin near the muzzle that I could not shoot more than 2 rounds from each barrel and still hold on to them.
Baikal is pushing the safety envelope with the 45-70 if you ask me.


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#5413029 - 07/11/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: Snowwolfe]  
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Abner Offline
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mauserand9mm - on my particular gun, the right bbl shoots about two inches higher than the left at that distance. Considering that 75yds is about as far as I would shoot this gun at game, it is not an issue.

Snowwolf - I understand what you are saying in regards to the thin bbls, but I don't really give it much thought. I just give it some time between shots. I'm not going to be shooting a bunch of shells thru it at any animals anyway. Also, at the pressures that the this 45/70 is made for (32,000) I really don't think it's a safety issue.

What everyone must understand is that this gun is really a poor mans double. That is what it was made for. If you buy one expecting it to do everything your Marlin Guide gun will do, you will be disappointed. If you buy it for what it is; a functional side by side big bore double that is just a fun gun to shoot then like me you will be happy with it. From what I have read, I probably hunt with mine more than most. But for the close range berry patch black bear hunting I do it's just perfect. Looking down those big bbls at a bear is as good as it gets.

#5413095 - 07/11/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: Abner]  
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mauserand9mm Offline
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2 inches at that distance is quite good for a double in this price range, and you are lucky to get a good one. I know someone that got good accuracy but poor regulation (about a foot separation at 50yards) with his Baikal 45/70 and used the adjuster and shims to fix the regulation but lost accuracy out of one barrel (went to 4 inches at 50 yards).

Still, okay for hunting - could aim off if required. I forget the brand, but there was/is a company that makes a double barrel 45/70 with two rear sights as standard to handle the regulation issue ie one rear sight per barrel.

#5414125 - 07/12/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: MartyBoy]  
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Snowwolfe Offline
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Originally Posted by MartyBoy
Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore loads a 430 grain LBT hardened bullet at 1900fps, with 3,500 ME, which he says can be used safely in the SPR22.


While Tim may say this round is "safe" to use in a Baikal I am sure he is referring to the pressure maximum. These litte rifles are not designed for such bone jarring recoil and you will end up with a broken pile of parts.



Hillary Clinton In 2013: “I Would Like To See People Like Donald Trump Run For Office; They’re Honest And Can’t Be Bought”
#5415170 - 07/12/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Snowwolfe]  
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Abner Offline
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Snowwolfe - I would tent to agree with you on your last post. I'm pretty easy on mine. My reloads duplicate factory 405gr Rem loads and that's all I plan on using. If the gun breaks, I'll bet it will be hard to get parts for, if you can get them at all.

#5422874 - 07/15/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: mauserand9mm]  
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brinky72 Offline
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
2 inches at that distance is quite good for a double in this price range, and you are lucky to get a good one. I know someone that got good accuracy but poor regulation (about a foot separation at 50yards) with his Baikal 45/70 and used the adjuster and shims to fix the regulation but lost accuracy out of one barrel (went to 4 inches at 50 yards).

Still, okay for hunting - could aim off if required. I forget the brand, but there was/is a company that makes a double barrel 45/70 with two rear sights as standard to handle the regulation issue ie one rear sight per barrel.



David Pedersoli I believe made something similar that was offered through Cabela's as well as a 72 cal BP double.

#5844475 - 11/24/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: brinky72]  
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wbyman Offline
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Any new comments on these rifles ? I just bougth a new one in 45/70 should be here by Tuesday. Thanks.

#5845982 - 11/24/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: wbyman]  
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M3taco Offline
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I bought one about 3 years ago. I had a gunsmith go through the triggers and the cocking mechanism so it would stay fully open without having to be held open - otherwise it took nearly three hands to load it. After that it now stays fully open when cocked without having to be held open and still retains the "half open" characteristic.

I've got a Nikon 1-4x20 mounted on it in a 22 rim fire base that has a set screw that happens to fall into the grove at the back of the rib - never has shot it loose and I've shot it a lot.

Played with a boat load of different loads and finally settled on just plain old Rem 405's at 1600fps. Got it regulated (took a lot of playing around with the jack screw and ..... a vice and large wrench - it is Russian after all) so that both barrels shot into a little more than a 2" circle at 100 yds.

Took it to Namibia last year to "blood" it on Gemsbok and Warthog. Don't know what happened between the last day on the range and the the proof shooting at the PH's range five days later but neither one of us could put both barrels on a typing sheet size target at 50 meters. Ended up just putting it back in the case. That was back in Aug and I still haven't looked at it. Guess this winter I'll get it out and try to sort out what happened and take it with me on next June's trip to Namibia.

The nicest part of it is the ability to use the jack screw to adjust the regulation to the load you want to shoot instead of having to adjust your loads to shoot where the barrels are regulated like on the high end doubles.

In any case it is fun as hell to shoot and I would use it on any plains game in Africa out to 150 yds and pretty much anything in North America.

Bottom line is once you get it sorted out how you want it (it will make you crazy in the process) you will have a ball with it.

#5864644 - 11/30/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: M3taco]  
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wbyman Offline
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Thanks for the info. m3taco. Antbody else have any experience with the rifle ?

#5924854 - 12/15/11 Re: It would make a great pumping handle for a car jack [Re: wbyman]  
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Abner Offline
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wbyman - did you get your rifle. I'd like to hear how you like it. I didn't use mine for hunting this year, but I'm still having a ball at the range. Let us know what you think.

#5957215 - 12/23/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: salmonhead]  
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While they work I would certainly consider them crude. One of my friends was invited to the birthday party hosted by Mr. Kalashnikov who developed the AK47. They hunted his estate for Red Deer with these double rifles. He was able to purchase a couple & sold me one. While I killed a couple of boar with mine the stock is a 2X4, action is stiff & crude, accuracy is poor, difficult to scope, & the regulation system is rube goldberg. Other than these deficiencies its a great rifle.


Life Members SCI & NRA. NRA Instructor & RSO. What have YOU done to support hunting & gun rights?
#5957397 - 12/23/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: tbear]  
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Abner Offline
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tbear - if you are unhappy with your rifle, I'm sure you could sell it in about one second to one of the others like myself who are having a ball with ours. Then you could take what you get for this one, add several thousand dollars, and get one that you will be happy with. Or, you could accept that it was never meant to be a high dollar rifle, work up a load that is reasonably accurate (even the highest priced doubles have their own "special" load), and understand that the action will work its way in after a few boxes of shells. By the way, Warne scope mounts work well, as I'm sure many others will. When you look at it that way, you are right, it's a fine rifle. Just sayin.

#5961056 - 12/24/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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tbear Offline
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I have taken the rifle to several gun shows & there was no interest at any price. I work at many gun shows for our local SCI chapter & even displayed it several times in our booth. I wish you the best with yours, but in my area there is absolutely no interest. I have used a 416 Rigby bolt gun for African hunting & at this stage of my life will probably never get back to Africa again so a double isn't in my plans.


Life Members SCI & NRA. NRA Instructor & RSO. What have YOU done to support hunting & gun rights?
#5961352 - 12/25/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: tbear]  
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pod Offline
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ive had one for some time and i am well pleased with it. i regulated it at 50 yds. perfect 2 in. parellel spread. its not
as nice as my others but a great sxs dr. for the money. i also fitted mine with an 4x scope with detachable mts. by the way i also bought a remington hard case for it. a very nice combo.

#5961917 - 12/25/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pod]  
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Abner Offline
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pod - I bought a hard case made for a takedown gun for mine and fitted it with a 1.5-5X20 scope. I'll never hunt outside the U.S., but this gun has, for me, added a touch of Africa on my bear and pig hunts.

tbear - I see you are an NRA instructor. Thank you for your part in protecting our gun rights and teaching our future generations.

#5965440 - 12/26/11 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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pod Offline
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abner: ill never hunt outside the u.s. either [ much to old] but have several sxs doub. rifles. that i hunt white tails with and like yourself like that stroll in la la land. my best

#6217622 - 02/24/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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This sorta died after Christmas, I have recently purchased a mp221 double 45-70. Seems like many here I will never get to Africa, but can imagine a cape buf in the scope. I have settled on a 405 cast with 38.5 gr of 3031. I was amazed at the regulation and how well the jack screw worked.I have read this along with other posts and find them very interesting. Just wanted to keep this post alive.
X-Pilot


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#6221216 - 02/25/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: xpilot]  
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I just saw one of these at Rocky Mtn sports in Riverton, wy. It was around $850.

#6223666 - 02/26/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Ralphie]  
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Abner Offline
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XPILOT - I use a similar load 38gr. 3031 405gr. Rem JSP. Pretty much duplicates the factory loading. I'm still having a ball with mine. Although I didn't use it hunting this year, I plan on looking down those barrels at a black bear once again next year. I have used it for bear and elk so far and will use if for pigs when the chance comes. Have fun.

#6223806 - 02/26/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Originally Posted by Abner
Who, if anyone, makes scope rings and bases that will fit the 11mm dovetail mounting rail, that can take the recoil of the 45/70. All I have been able to find for the 3/8", 11mm dovetail are mounts for .22cal. rifles and airguns. I would prefer a quick disconnect set of rings, but that might be to much to ask. Any thoughts?


Did you try Tally Q.D.'s? I think they are 3/8" dovetail.


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#6242202 - 03/01/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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byc Offline
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Hey! What happened to the pictures. I really wanted to see it!


Proud to be a true Sandlapper!!

Go Nats!!!!


#6249817 - 03/03/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: byc]  
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Abner Offline
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I'm not sure where they went. Give me a day or two and I'll load up a few and post them.

#6269630 - 03/08/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: byc]  
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OK - I took some new pics and can't remember how I got the old ones downloaded. Some help would be appreciated. Where do I download the pics on the net to get them to download here?

#6271141 - 03/09/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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AkMike1 Offline
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Photobucket is one of the better places to download.


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#6273664 - 03/09/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: AkMike1]  
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Abner Offline
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Here are a few pics of my double 45/70. They aren't the best, but it is what I have at the moment. I could only post one at a time, so sorry for the multiple posts.
[Linked Image]

#6273677 - 03/09/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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#6273686 - 03/09/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: byc]  
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#6273692 - 03/09/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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For the fellas that may be interested there is a Kodiak SXS 45/70 at Gun Emporium in Conroe TX for a little over $3200. Its sweet looking! grin


JOC was right. The 270 Winchester on a Model 70 is a great combination as is the 30/06 and 375 H&H

#6420114 - 04/18/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: raybass]  
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I have had my Baikal MP221 45/70 on order for three weeks now. I hope to have it in my hands in about 12 days. Waiting for the banks to clear "their" money orders between themselves. USPS money orders only for future purchases. It is hard to wait.

#6424920 - 04/20/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: tbear]  
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Originally Posted by tbear
While they work I would certainly consider them crude. One of my friends was invited to the birthday party hosted by Mr. Kalashnikov who developed the AK47. They hunted his estate for Red Deer with these double rifles. He was able to purchase a couple & sold me one. While I killed a couple of boar with mine the stock is a 2X4, action is stiff & crude, accuracy is poor, difficult to scope, & the regulation system is rube goldberg. Other than these deficiencies its a great rifle.


Sounds like the one in our local shop.


1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
#6588014 - 06/12/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Swampman700]  
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I ordered a MP221 SXS 45-70 last Thursday and picked it up at my FFL a few minutes ago. $750 out the door.

I was pleasantly surprised at the overall appearance, fit and finish. The stock fits me perfectly in every aspect rendering a solid cheek weld when the sights are properly aligned. It has a 14 1/4" length of pull. It has a pretty stiff ventilated recoil pad on it. I forsee a Limbsaver pad on the horizon.

Metal to metal fit is as tight as an out of the box Citori. Very nice and uniform crowns on both muzzles. Mirror bright bore. The matte blue job is as good as you will find on any mass produced Rem, Ruger or Winchester. The action is VERY tight as many have noted and needs some serious breaking in. To me that is far better than a rattle trap. The sights are nice! I'm a big fan of the square notch and round post anyway... The front post bead looks identical to and will probably interchage with an AK.

On the down side, the triggers really suck. They break at about 8-9 pounds. But I'm spoiled to a Ray Perry 3.5 pound trigger job. Looks like it will take a trip to Ray so he can waive his $50 magic wand over it.

The furniture is very plain, but well shaped with what appears to be an oil finish. Wood fits the metal tight everywhere it should. Wood to metal fit is comparable to my Ruger #1.

I still need to shoot it, but at this point I have NO complaints whatsoever. It will undoubtably replace my beloved model 94 as my go-to walkabout rifle.

A new set of dies, 100 Barnes 350gr TSX's and 100 new Rem nickel cases should be waiting on my door steps when I get home. According to the book 60 grains of Varget should yield app. 28,000 psi and 1900fps.

Mick


Mick
#6588350 - 06/12/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: GutterSlut]  
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Originally Posted by ClarkKent
I ordered a MP221 SXS 45-70 last Thursday and picked it up at my FFL a few minutes ago. $750 out the door.

I was pleasantly surprised at the overall appearance, fit and finish. The stock fits me perfectly in every aspect rendering a solid cheek weld when the sights are properly aligned. It has a 14 1/4" length of pull. It has a pretty stiff ventilated recoil pad on it. I forsee a Limbsaver pad on the horizon.

Metal to metal fit is as tight as an out of the box Citori. Very nice and uniform crowns on both muzzles. Mirror bright bore. The matte blue job is as good as you will find on any mass produced Rem, Ruger or Winchester. The action is VERY tight as many have noted and needs some serious breaking in. To me that is far better than a rattle trap. The sights are nice! I'm a big fan of the square notch and round post anyway... The front post bead looks identical to and will probably interchage with an AK.

On the down side, the triggers really suck. They break at about 8-9 pounds. But I'm spoiled to a Ray Perry 3.5 pound trigger job. Looks like it will take a trip to Ray so he can waive his $50 magic wand over it.

The furniture is very plain, but well shaped with what appears to be an oil finish. Wood fits the metal tight everywhere it should. Wood to metal fit is comparable to my Ruger #1.

I still need to shoot it, but at this point I have NO complaints whatsoever. It will undoubtably replace my beloved model 94 as my go-to walkabout rifle.

A new set of dies, 100 Barnes 350gr TSX's and 100 new Rem nickel cases should be waiting on my door steps when I get home. According to the book 60 grains of Varget should yield app. 28,000 psi and 1900fps.

Mick


Welcome to the fire.

I see you have lurked awhile. Some picture of your new gun?

Before fireing the load with 60 grs. of Varget?

I do not know what book that load is from but

THAT IS NOT A SAFE LOAD.

Way over 28000 / 1900 fps.

QL estimated 94000 psi, which will blow up your gun.


Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.



#6588624 - 06/12/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Ready]  
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I get 2000fps with 60 gr Varget and 350 Hdy RN with CCI200 in RP cases in my NEF Handi-Rile. I would back off to 50 gr to start with with TSX's and keep them to 1800 fps in the double. Lead gas checked would be a better choice at these velocities IMHO.

Play safe.

Last edited by jimone; 06/12/12.

I should never have shown the dog I could juggle.
#6588998 - 06/12/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: jimone]  
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Yeah I've been hanging around a while. I rarely have time to be active on forums, but they contain a wealth of information and differing points of view.

I was at work when I made the first post and was depending on memory, of which I have none...

Hmmmmm... Well Hogdon has this on their
website for the Marlin lever action 47/70 rifles -

350 GR. HDY JRN Hodgdon Varget .458" 2.540"
54.0 grains 1786 fps 21,800 CUP
60.0C grains 2013 fps 29,500 CUP

This is from a conversion website -
2,200BAR = 31,908.3023006PSI (14.50375 PSI = 1 BAR).

Does CUP=PSI or close???

Rocket science isn't my bag but, I think the action should be as strong as a Marlin Lever action or stronger.

I plan to start at 50gr and work up. Recoil may determine the max load. I have a .458 mag and some other meat grinders and I don't enjoy shooting them either.

Let me see if I can get some pics up.

Mick




Mick
#6590853 - 06/13/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: GutterSlut]  
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Start low and work up, as is sensible practice. Case capacity varies with brand a lot with the 45-70, a safe load with Winchester cases may be an overload with Remington or Starline.
I would not shoot my Handi-Rifle loads in my Marlin guide gun. Varget is a good choice, as is IMR 4208XBR and H 322.


I should never have shown the dog I could juggle.
#6590961 - 06/13/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: GutterSlut]  
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France

PSI and CUP are not the same units at all, but 28000cup in the 45-70 seems to be close to 28000 psi. Not the same with other ammo.
You can find helpful datas on the 45-70 in the special issue of Rifle magazine call Legacy of the Lever Gun. Go to Rifle web site, may be they have some left to sell. Interesting reading.

The russian action is strong, used for ammo which are close to 58000psi and more without problem.

Marlin is given to 42000psi, 1886 with nickel steel barrel or reproduction can go to the same, even a bit more but as the saying goes: "better safe than sorry". No need to try to transform a 45-70 in 458WinMag.

I load for my Winchesters and Browning 86 with VN133 powders and bullets from 300 to 405grs.

57,8grs of VN133 and Hornady 350RN bullet give me 620m/s a bit more than 2030fps, barrel is 22inches. Pressure is around 30000psi may be 31000. Cases are Remington, primers CCI.
Be careful not to mix cases, Remington and Winchester are close but the Federal are very heavy and capacity way smaller so same loads give over pressure.

With same powder and 405grs bullet i use 53grs for 580m/s. Pressure are close to the former above. Think you can use them without fear in your double.

Lead bullets are a must in this caliber even with smokeless powders, if you push them a bit use gas checked one and lubricate with Alox or another high quality grease or lubricant. I get very few leading doing that.

I even used 540grs GC lead bullets in my lever action. Could be interesting to test in your double. Maybe you can load it longer than in a lever for more powder capacity. Good for close range hunting on big boars if you can get them to shoot.

Have good time loading and shooting, take care!

Dom



Experience is a lantern, carried in our back, only lightening already walked path. (Confucius)
#6597669 - 06/16/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: writing_frog]  
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I bought one of these new in 30-06 in 2008. Had major trigger problems and after firing the shell would get stuck in one of the barrels. Had to be pried out with a screw driver. I sent it back to EAA down in Florida. they sent me a new gun. after about 20 rounds through the new one a piece fell out from the underneath of the rib in front. Trigger was still sticky too but I could have lived with that. At this point I talked to their gunsmith on the phone and politely expressed my displeasure. I sent the second one back. When I got it back there was a work order with it that said the gun had been disassembled by some one other than them(meaning me),screws had been buggered up, and that it had been over greased. I am not a gun smith and I certainly would never take a gun apart that is supposed to be under warranty. Well, the third "repair" resulted in a gun that is so hard to break open after shooting 2 barrels that it is unusable. At that point I kind of just gave up and it has been sitting on the shelf since then. I didn't expect a custom double for what it cost me but it isn't too much to ask a that it just shoots and is operable. All in all very poor quality even for the low price and the service from the company was even worse.

#6630827 - 06/27/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Buckheart]  
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Moderately buffed the furniture with the abrasive side of a dishwashing sponge that was under the sink... One coat of oil base dark walnut stain and wiped dry after 30 minutes. Next day three wet coats of raw Linseed oil rubbed in by hand. Next day one wet coat of drying linseed oil rubbed in by hand. It ain't presentation grade turkish walnut, but it ain't bad and the critters won't care...

The gun was bone dry of lubricant as it came out of the box. After a LIBERAL application of Break free and grease on the hing friction points the action will fall open, but no "looseness" exists. I think the hammer springs came off of the front end of a volkswagon or a 20mm anti aircraft gun. Cocking them requires some downward pressure for the last few gegrees of opening the action. The downward pressure required to open the action all the way is nothing new for an old double barrel SXS shotgun operator. I have a savage .410 SXS and used to have a 12 gauge SXS, they are the same way. You HAVE to cock the hammer springs somehow...

Function is flawless. After liberal and dripping lube job to the fire control group, the triggers are MUCH better. Still creepy but plenty manageable for what it is intended for. With the 350 Barnes TSX's at 1800fps it kicks about like a 20 gauge 870 with 2 3/4 slugs.

I found a hidden document on USSG's website through a Goggle search and it explains regulating these rifles. The first page of the PDF document is apparentyl written by some expert from the U.S. It explains the commonnly heard theory/method where one sights in the left barrel and then regulates the right barrel to the point of impact of the left barrel. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

I completely stripped it except for the fire control group and it became immediately obvious to me that the commonly advertised barrel regulation procedure was incorrect. The barrel regulation screw resides on the centerline between both barrels at a totally unsupported point. The screw pushes laterally and equally opposite on both barrels at the same time. The screw does nothing more than regulate both barrels laterally and equally at the same time. Simply put, when you move one barrel laterally, "in or out", the other barrel moves in or out as well. At least in theory and by design. The barrel screw ONLY determines the width of the spread of point of impact at a given distance on these rifles. Nothing more or nothing less. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...

Haven't had a chance to do much shooting with it yet. Waiting for a weekend when I have plenty of time. I'm attaching cell phone pics of the gun in final form. I'm also attaching a link to the USSG/Russian document. Page one of the document is someones rendition/translation of how to regulate. Page two is a mechanical blueprint of the rifle and apparently a direct translation of the Russin instructions for regulating the barrels. The instructions from one page to another are vastly different. It's no wonder everyone has been having hell tryin to regulate the barrels as page one describes.

See pics at below link.

http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/hound329/2012%20Baikal%20SXS%2045-70/

See USSG original document at below link.

http://www.eaacorp.com/Manuals/MP221_Barrel_Regulation.pdf

Mick


Mick
#6631286 - 06/27/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: GutterSlut]  
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#6632602 - 06/27/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: ab_bentley]  
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After three years, it's good to see this thread still going. I'm still having fun with mine and plan on using it yet again this year in the field. Are they getting easier to get now or, was the wait a long one, as is was with mine. I waited about three years after I first saw then advertised to get mine.

#6633571 - 06/28/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Ab, I picked up the phone, called my pawn shop buddy/ffl and told him to order it. I think it was four days later he called back and it was in his hands. I loaded up 10 rounds last night to 60 grains of Varget (Hogdon book load). Gonna see how they shoot today if the heat doesn't change my mind. Might even set up the Chrony to check fps.

After looking at pics of the earlier guns it is obvious that the Russians have vastly improved on QA/QC with these little rifles. Mine is really nice for the price ($750 out the door). I am amamazed at how light, handy and quick pointing it is. Money well spent if you have this particular itch and don't want to take out a second morgage on the house to scratch it.


Mick
#6639296 - 06/29/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: GutterSlut]  
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Now that the Remington/Cerebus criminals are out of it the quality should be much better, I am starting to want one again.


I should never have shown the dog I could juggle.
#6750191 - 08/06/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Originally Posted by Abner
After three years, it's good to see this thread still going. I'm still having fun with mine and plan on using it yet again this year in the field. Are they getting easier to get now or, was the wait a long one, as is was with mine. I waited about three years after I first saw then advertised to get mine.


A lot of good reports about the gun. I have a Baikal IZH-94 O/U 12 gauge/.308 Win and it's a good gun and the rifle barrel is very accurate.
I have 2 Guide Guns, a Pedersoli 86/71 and a NEF single shot in .45-70 GVT so unless the Baikal S/S I see is pretty cheap I think I'll pass.
Like I said before - too heavy. I do a lot of walking where I hunt & I can't see myself lugging that big hunk of iron 10 miles over my shoulder.


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#6751345 - 08/06/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Dream gun is a double rifle

#6751954 - 08/06/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: THEBBC]  
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Hello,
I am new to this forum, and just thought I would offer some of my views on this double rifle.
While not being hand crafted creation I believe it holds true to the original concept of the double rifle. It's tough, light enough to be carried all-day, quick to align on target, and has a clean form, meaning that it does not snag up as much as some guns do, when being dragged through dense undergrowth etc. Given the ranges that double rifles are meant to be used at, it's accurate to. It has two triggers, so delivers a fast" double tap" if needed, and if the first barrel rewards you with that ominous "click ! ", the second is instantly ready to use, barring a serious malfunction in the lock mechanism. So in its heart, it's a true double rifle. I own two of these, both in 45-70 and I have had them now for a couple of years .I have taken numerous wild boar in both France and Germany with them, and the 45-70 round, if placed correctly, can be described as having" authority" at the receiving end. Yes, there are [bleep] little things, the trigger pull is notoriously bad, the actions can be tight, but you will be amazed how a good dunking in a super penetrating oil can improve things. I find the plastic centre rib annoying, but only because it's plastic. The "aiming arrangements" are not to my taste, so I just filed mine to a V cut so mimicking the express sights I am more used to. I will eventually get around to replacing the "AK" front sight, but it works, it just seems to catch horribly in most guns slips. But for the price and a little bit of work,, a wonderful price for a double rifle. I am not particularly recoil sensitive, but a piece of advice I picked up for those that are, apparently drilling through the holes in the side of the recoil pad, gives you something that mimics the Limb Saver pad.
I believe the regulating screw between the barrels to be a wonderful and an innovative idea. This frees a double rifle user to a wider range of bullet weight/velocity types, more than the conventional regulated double, with a little bit of work on the range, but that's not a bad thing.
With the loads I use, both of these rifles deliver 1.5/ 2 inch groups at 50 yards from both barrels (one grouping) free standing, if I, with my years and eyesight do my bit, and still passingly accurate at 75 yards for game shooting That's good enough for me .I only use these guns for European hunting, and most of it is in thick scrub or woodland where even 50 yards can be a long shot.
A lot of Internet chatter covers how they dont quite match individuals taste and requirements. To be quite honest, most of us find, that an out-of-the-box anything, has annoying little problems that do not suit our own personal tastes, that's because they're made for many people with different tastes and manufactured for a set price. These rifles for me have performed well in the conditions I ask them to working in
I have owned and used many English double rifles, and hunted with them in the countries they were designed for. I have also helped friends and hunters find loads to match the regulating of their rifle.so I am not new to the double rifle game. And I will agree that this rifle does not stack up in workmanship or quality against a vastly more expensive custom-made double. But as I said earlier, I believe it holds true to the spirit of the double rifle. It is a tough, small, no-nonsense, hard-hitting, game taker.
If you have to be a double rifle snob, let's be honest then, it has to be English, and it has to have side locks and double triggers, anything else is a poor imitation. Let's not go down that route please.
I have found these rifles to be fun, accurate enough for the job they were intended for, easy to carry and maintain. They also have a pleasing look, which in the field does not cause some of the concern to the general public that some shapes of rifle do. I have to say that some people have been quite impressed with the way my "little. 410 shot gun" speaks!
My apologies for such a long winded first post.

#6761630 - 08/10/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: THEBBC]  
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Originally Posted by THEBBC
Dream gun is a double rifle


Same here....but the Old Ball & Chain is pretty handy with a rolling pin so most of the dream guns will stay dreams. cry


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#6770349 - 08/12/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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Bravo 600Nitro - That is the same thing I have been saying since I started this post years ago. I still have a wonderful time with mine and it shoots as well as I need it to for the type of hunting I use it for. I fully expect to look down its barrels at yet another black bear this year and my guess is that it will do just fine.

#6788268 - 08/19/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: Abner]  
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Abner:

I posted my experience with mine earlier when this posting stated and just wanted to pass along an update.

Had the triggers and cocking mechanism worked on by a gunsmith. He was able to get the trigger pulls very smooth and about 3.5 lbs. He couldn't do much about the take-up or over travel because he said there was no normal adjustments to them. He modified the cocking so that once you open the action it will actually stay fully open and not have to be held open. Once you drop the cartridges in and give a little "lift" to the barrels it will close to the "half closed" position. Why does it have this "half closed" position? So, you can carry it "open" and the cartridges won't fall out - just add an extra level of "safety" on top of the tang safety.

After lots of trial and tribulation, I finally settled on just Rem 405's at 1600fps and regulated it for that load. Out of the box, at 50yds, it shot two groups 6" apart and right barrel 6" higher than the left. Via a combination of a bench vice, a large wrench, some shims made out of a feeler gauge and the jack-screw between the barrel I was finally able to get it to shoot both barrels into a 2" circle at 100 yds. with a old Weaver k2.5 scope.

Took it to Namibia a couple of months ago for plains game. I was the back-up shooter and my wife was the primary. Ended up using the little double to take a number of head of cull Gemsbok out to 125yds. All one shot each.

I have to say that I am still grinning about hunting with a "double rifle" in Africa. I will be taking it with me again next year.

Would I use it on DG? Leopard, yes, but anything else, if I had a choice..no. But then I wouldn't use a 458 WM with 405gr softs at 1600 fps or a 577NE with 500gr softs at 1600fps either. But I will and have used my custom bolt actions in 45-70 and 450M with hand-loads of 350gr TSX's and 330gr Barnes Banded Solids at 2400 fps and next year I will be using my Win 70 in 450M with 325gr CEB#13 solids at 2400fps on PAC ele.

The little Rem/Bikal double is what it is. Don't buy it thinking you'll re-chamber it to something bigger - the chambers are too thin and too short. It is more than adequate for what it is intended for and at that price point it is a huge bargain. The money you save on it over the high-end doubles will pay for an African PG trip or two.


#6817292 - 08/28/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: M3taco]  
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I finally bought one of the Baikal SxS double rifles in 45-70.
The wood and varnish, the w/m fit, the checkering and bluing were far superior to those of the Remington made Marlin 1895 rifles being currently sold.
If the normal Baikal MP-221 is as stiff as mine NIB I suggest taking all the pictures down off your walls before trying to assemble or disassemble the rifle.
I struggled for 10 minutes to get the for-end off and the barrel locking mechanism is so stiff I have to brace the barrel on the ground and reef for all I'm worth on the tang toggle latch to open the action.
I can't see cleaning & lubrication making this gun anywhere near as smooth as it needs to be to be usable in the field and I'm going to get my gunsmith to work the gun over and do a trigger job at the same time.

Last edited by pricedo; 08/28/12.

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#6823014 - 08/30/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: raybass]  
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Originally Posted by raybass
For the fellas that may be interested there is a Kodiak SXS 45/70 at Gun Emporium in Conroe TX for a little over $3200. Its sweet looking! grin


At $5000 & almost 9 pounds you can keep it.
My Baikal weighs about 7 pounds and cost $850.
The wood on mine is dark walnut & the steel bluing is rich & lustrous.
If the Pedersoli is prettier it's not by much......certainly not $4150 worth.



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#6824019 - 08/30/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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Sorry to hear yours is one of the troublesome ones, they do seem to vary in quality control. One of mine I had to strip down the action, boil in water, and give a good soaking in super penetrating oil while hot, that seemed clear most of the problems. It must be remembered it's easier to loosen gun up, then tighten it with a box lock action. I to am loading 405 grain bullets, to what my loading manual tells me will achieve 1600 fps. Still very happy with my 2,and I was interested to read the African experience.
I travel back once a year, and may take mine along this time to see what can be achieved, There will be no dangerous game on the list, "horses for courses" is my experience here.
They are a double rifle, and if people remember what they are, and their limitations (all firearms, in all calibres, have their limitations) they are a a vehicle of tremendous fun and experimentation in loads and regulation.
My problem now is that they are leading me down a very dark path away from the traditional doubles, I am considering building a double rifle on a shot gun action now, I have just ordered a "HOW TOO" book on their construction, and purchased a old TOZ 63, shot gun as the unwilling donor for the action. Nice lock-up, including a Greener cross bolt system, and hammers- a dark path indeed!
Anyway back to this little 45-70, even if a little paid gunsmithing work is needed, they are still a hell of a lot cheaper than their closest rival, and quite natty little game takers, and when I say little I'm referring to the rifle not the size of the game it can take.
Pricedo, I hope the problems with yours are short lived and easily fixed, there will be a little experimentation in loading and regulating, I should say that can be fun, sometimes it can be frustrating! But once everything is tuned in, a great package, and capable of being a serious hunting rifle.
All the best,
600Nitro

#6824712 - 08/30/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: 600Nitro]  
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To Close to Milwaukee; To Far ...
Quote
. . . I am considering building a double rifle on a shot gun action now . . . .


Mine's being built as we speak. 450/400 NE 3" using a J.P. Sauer 12ga SxS as the 'donor'. Should be in my hands the latter part of Oct. Can't wait. In the mean time I've given consideration to the Remington/Baikal 45/70 as an interim 'toy'. Just haven't pulled the trigger on one - literally or figuratively.

#6825133 - 08/30/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: 600Nitro]  
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Originally Posted by 600Nitro
Sorry to hear yours is one of the troublesome ones, they do seem to vary in quality control. One of mine I had to strip down the action, boil in water, and give a good soaking in super penetrating oil while hot, that seemed clear most of the problems. It must be remembered it's easier to loosen gun up, then tighten it with a box lock action. I to am loading 405 grain bullets, to what my loading manual tells me will achieve 1600 fps. Still very happy with my 2,and I was interested to read the African experience.
I travel back once a year, and may take mine along this time to see what can be achieved, There will be no dangerous game on the list, "horses for courses" is my experience here.
They are a double rifle, and if people remember what they are, and their limitations (all firearms, in all calibres, have their limitations) they are a a vehicle of tremendous fun and experimentation in loads and regulation.
My problem now is that they are leading me down a very dark path away from the traditional doubles, I am considering building a double rifle on a shot gun action now, I have just ordered a "HOW TOO" book on their construction, and purchased a old TOZ 63, shot gun as the unwilling donor for the action. Nice lock-up, including a Greener cross bolt system, and hammers- a dark path indeed!
Anyway back to this little 45-70, even if a little paid gunsmithing work is needed, they are still a hell of a lot cheaper than their closest rival, and quite natty little game takers, and when I say little I'm referring to the rifle not the size of the game it can take.
Pricedo, I hope the problems with yours are short lived and easily fixed, there will be a little experimentation in loading and regulating, I should say that can be fun, sometimes it can be frustrating! But once everything is tuned in, a great package, and capable of being a serious hunting rifle.
All the best,
600Nitro


I'm sitting in front of the computer watching DVD movies, surfing gun forums and working the hinge of the MP-221.

By the end of the process I'll have a looser action and a pair of biceps to rival Schwarzeneggers.

I just have to ask. How long does it take after you show up at the African plains campfire for breakfast with the other PHs with their Purdeys, H&Hs and Westley Richards by their sides for the laughter to die down when you pull that Baikal out of it's case??.....JUST KIDDING laugh


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#6826737 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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I don't know about that one, but I'll let you know what my hunter friends think in South Africa, when I take one of mine back in a couple of months.
In many places in the world, Baikal has a reputation for good honest, reliable, robust guns. Admittedly- not the prettiest or the finest London finish, but reliable worked pieces.
I have shot many double rifles over the years, being left-handed they are far easier option for me, than cranking a bolt from the wrong side -especially when things are getting a little warm with several thousand pounds of incoming beastie. Ok, I was lucky that I grew up around side-by-side rifles and shotguns, and I find using them second nature.
I must also offer my heartfelt thanks for the gun buffs in places like America and Australia for keeping the interest in the old Nitro express cartridges alive.
I remember scrambling around trying to find suitable cartridges for my doubles, finding that most of them had been made in the 50s, and this was 20 or 30 years later. I have to admit 99% of them still went bang, thank God! It was the rising interest from such countries that kept the old gun companies going, and the reintroduction of so many classic cartridges -= Thank you.
I was also brought up to use iron sights, which are the classic option on double rifles. Although most of my shooting is what I would call close range stuff, -"Get as close as you can, then get 10 yards closer." Iron sights and a double rifle, can still be used out to a couple of hundred yards, and with the eyesight of youth (or glasses, and/ or corrective eye surgery, for us oldies) and good calibres, I have seen people use them effectively to stretch a little beyond this. No exact distances, as it is easy for a "Hunters yard" to be somewhat different from the official one!
I think more eyebrows will be raised at my choice of calibre, 45-70- than the rifle itself, a classic American cartridge, that is still pretty new in Africa. I'll also be interested in the reaction to the regulating turn screw. It will be interesting to see how the"zero"still holds in different heat conditions. I think for most medium sized African game it will be adequate, and what's more, it can happily live in the truck without leading such pampered life as some of my other doubles. This is what I got it for, a working double rifle that you are not afraid to get a few dings in the woodwork,etc. without upsetting your pension plan.


#6826925 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: 600Nitro]  
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Originally Posted by 600Nitro
I don't know about that one, but I'll let you know what my hunter friends think in South Africa, when I take one of mine back in a couple of months.
In many places in the world, Baikal has a reputation for good honest, reliable, robust guns. Admittedly- not the prettiest or the finest London finish, but reliable worked pieces.
I have shot many double rifles over the years, being left-handed they are far easier option for me, than cranking a bolt from the wrong side -especially when things are getting a little warm with several thousand pounds of incoming beastie. Ok, I was lucky that I grew up around side-by-side rifles and shotguns, and I find using them second nature.
I must also offer my heartfelt thanks for the gun buffs in places like America and Australia for keeping the interest in the old Nitro express cartridges alive.
I remember scrambling around trying to find suitable cartridges for my doubles, finding that most of them had been made in the 50s, and this was 20 or 30 years later. I have to admit 99% of them still went bang, thank God! It was the rising interest from such countries that kept the old gun companies going, and the reintroduction of so many classic cartridges -= Thank you.
I was also brought up to use iron sights, which are the classic option on double rifles. Although most of my shooting is what I would call close range stuff, -"Get as close as you can, then get 10 yards closer." Iron sights and a double rifle, can still be used out to a couple of hundred yards, and with the eyesight of youth (or glasses, and/ or corrective eye surgery, for us oldies) and good calibres, I have seen people use them effectively to stretch a little beyond this. No exact distances, as it is easy for a "Hunters yard" to be somewhat different from the official one!
I think more eyebrows will be raised at my choice of calibre, 45-70- than the rifle itself, a classic American cartridge, that is still pretty new in Africa. I'll also be interested in the reaction to the regulating turn screw. It will be interesting to see how the"zero"still holds in different heat conditions. I think for most medium sized African game it will be adequate, and what's more, it can happily live in the truck without leading such pampered life as some of my other doubles. This is what I got it for, a working double rifle that you are not afraid to get a few dings in the woodwork,etc. without upsetting your pension plan.



Everything I see about my MP-221 "says" basic utilitarian quality.

It frankly isn't bad looking with matching butt & fore-end dark walnut stock & a rich lustrous bluing.

The furniture & w/m & m/m fit in the Baikal are a heck of a lot better than I'm seeing on the Marlin 1895s being made in the new factory in New York State since Remington took over the company.

The gun is an amazing 7 pounds which is a lot lighter than most of the British doubles and the sights are lined up to my shooting eye as soon as I shoulder the gun without any fidgeting or neck twisting required but that has more to do with luck than design.

Mu gunsmith said "These are a fairly common and are not a high quality gun"..............but without specifics of course.

I think this attitude has more to do with systemic prejudice because the gun is Russian made than actual experience.

Like the old saying goes: "Prejudice is a time saver cause it allows you to form opinions without getting all the facts."

What I'm seeing is a solidly built utilitarian gun.

That's the seeing & handling part of the evaluation.

Now comes the shooting part when I take it out on the range which should be happening soon.

If the rifle barrels are as accurate in this double rifle as the rifle barrel on my Baikal IZH-94 O/U (12 gauge/.308 Win) which shoots less than 1" @ 100 yards with a 2-7x33mm Leupold scope on top then it's a keeper.

I have taken a lot of upland game birds and a few deer with the Baikal IZH-94 over 10 trouble free years.......it didn't even have a stiff action hinge NIB.

The stiff hinge on the double rifle is a lot looser now than when the gun was NIB after being pumped a hundred or so times.

So far so good.........I'm optimistic. smile


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#6827381 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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Pricedo:

Just a note: Like all double rifles (even the most expensive one) this one's regulation is sensitive to cartridge load changes. The nice thing about the little Bikals are the ability for the user to regulate it themselves once you settle on a load combination and not have to send it back to the maker ($$$). Once you settle on a load and regulate it to that load STAY WITH IT or you will need to start the regulation process all over again.

Case in point - I spent the first two years I had mine (after getting it back from the gunsmith) trying to chase various bullet, powder and velocity combination while trying to regulate it each time. Two years ago is when I finally just settled on the Rem 405's at 1600 fps. Got it shooting honest 2" group at 100 yd. I actually schlepped it to Namibia for the first time two years ago.

The Sunday before we left, we went to the range for final sight-ins on all our rifles and I confirmed the 2" group. Ran a Bore-Snake through the barrels twice wiped it down and put it in the case. Reloaded all our shot ammo and packed it.

Six days later we are at the PH's place doing our initial sight-in confirmation at 100 yds. Pulled the trigger on the first barrel immediately noticed a difference in recoil but though it was just me - no round on paper. Second shot - same result. Two more, same same. Move to 50 yds. Two more neither on paper. PH tries it - four rounds, none on paper. Frustrated, I figured it got screwed up somewhere along the way, put it back in the case and left it there the rest of the trip. When home, put it in the safe and never even looked at it again.

A few months before we left for this years trip, I had a little time to spare and decided to take it out an look it over. Everything seemed just fine. Took the remaining box of loads I took the previous year and a box I had loaded before that last practice session. Just by chance, the first box I pull out of the shooting box was the box that was left behind. First two rounds either side of bull and 1" high. WTF!!! Grab two rounds out of the box that went - not on the paper. More WTF!!!

Got back home and pulled the powder from one round of each box. Mystery solved - wrong (higher) powder charge in the box that went. All I can figure it I used the wrong load data in the automatic powder dispenser. No body to blame but me!!

Decided to take it back again this year with the CORRECT ammo and it was a lot of fun. PH could believe it was the same rifle. Those 405's at 1600 fps where more than sufficient for Gemsbok. The ones I shot with it were all high spine shots (frontals and sides) so they all dropped at the shot. the PH LOVED the meat culling with the 45-70 as there was virtually ZERO bloodshot meat lost and no chasing.

It will give you fits trying to sort out the regulation.

Advice:
a) Settle on a bullet, bullet weight/style and mussel velocity BEFORE you start regulating it.
b) Use the same cases from the same manufacturer - lots of internal case capacity differences between makers.
c) Use the same power, same charge weight and lot number.
d) On mine, the jack-screw between the barrels would move the horizontal impact points, but it would also move the vertical impact points some two. The jack-screw is very effective - only go one or two clicks at a time. The more outward pressure the screw applies the faster it moves the horizontal impact points and it is easy to over adjust and have them crossing.

I had a hell of a time dealing with the vertical - had to apply some...torque to the barrels, then shim the end of the right one, and cant the scope just a little to finally get both barrels shooting absolutely horizontal. Lots of trials and tribulations, powder burned and bullets sent downrange, but that first Gemsbok on the ground was worth every bit of it and each one after that made it just that much sweeter!!

Remember, don't try to turn it into anything more than what it is or use it on thick skinned dangerous African game that it wasn't ever intended for and enjoy the hell out of it!!!!

#6828019 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: M3taco]  
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Friend of mine dropped by and saw the rifle and said the first thing he would do is convert one of the chambered barrels to .410 gauge shotgun and align the 45-70 barrel with the iron sights or an optical sight.

At 7 pounds it would make a great gun for a combo hunting trip for upland game & hogs/black bear/deer/elk/moose/whatever.

Regulation would no longer be an issue and the gun would be an extremely versatile utilitarian game getter.

Hmmmmmmm???????

Last edited by pricedo; 08/31/12.

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#6828278 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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Pricedo:

Why not do a Goggle search for 45-70 Forager rounds. No conversions required. I've played with them and they are effective on rabbits and tree rats out to 10-15 yards. They would work farther but the rifling causes the shot to spread real fast. Civil war soldiers where actually supplied with a 45-70 Forager round - it was a hollowed out wooden "bullet" that was filled with shot.

Then you come back to the original point of why spend $1000 on a "double rifle" just to convert it (spend more money) to a combo gun that can be bought for half that price (Savage 24).

#6828298 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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I've got over a dozen boxes of HSM 430 grain hard cast lead bulet factory ammo I got really cheap at a sale and essentially bought it for the Starline brass.
This ammo is stoutly loaded (not Buffalo Bore or Garrett stout but very close).........certainly well above the anemic green & yellow box 405 grain factory ammo.
I'm going to try the MP-221 on a diet of that stuff.
If I can get it to regulate firing the HSM ammo good enuf.
I have a feeling that those barrels will like hard cast bullets.
Hopefully the twist is fast enuf to stabilize 430 grain bullets.
How strong is the gun?
How heavy can its ammo be loaded?


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#6828355 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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The side of the barrel is marked not to exceed 3200 HST. That converts to something in the neighborhood of 28K psi. Some guys have said they have shot them hotter than that and those "accidental" loads I took to Namibia where a good bit above that. Fortunately, I have still have my eyes and fingers. Yes, there is normally an engineered in margin of safety, but you can see how short and thin the chamber steel is and there is no transition from the the chamber to the thin wall barrels. Me personally....I choose to stay on the side of safety and within the engineered design limits.

I did try several different weights in cast with gas checks from 325-425 grains at .459 dia. They worked well enough but, I had several thousand of the Rem 405's on hand and just ended up using them. One year I used the 405's at 2000 fps in a #1 and a a Siamese Mauser 45-70 on some Gemsbok. They made HUGE holes you could literally push a golf ball through but none exited and the jackets separated. Called a Rem rep and he said the 405's were designed to work best at MV's under 1600 fps. So...that is the velocity I've kept them at and they worked very well.

One thing I discovered with mine, the harder I pushed it the less accurate it became. I think the thin/short chambers and thin barrel walls probably contribute to that. Pretty much any good 400gr hard cast or jacketed bullet at 1600 fps will be pretty effective on any NA game and African PG.

Have fun at the range.




#6828471 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: M3taco]  
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Originally Posted by m3taco
The side of the barrel is marked not to exceed 3200 HST. That converts to something in the neighborhood of 28K psi. Some guys have said they have shot them hotter than that and those "accidental" loads I took to Namibia where a good bit above that. Fortunately, I have still have my eyes and fingers. Yes, there is normally an engineered in margin of safety, but you can see how short and thin the chamber steel is and there is no transition from the the chamber to the thin wall barrels. Me personally....I choose to stay on the side of safety and within the engineered design limits.

I did try several different weights in cast with gas checks from 325-425 grains at .459 dia. They worked well enough but, I had several thousand of the Rem 405's on hand and just ended up using them. One year I used the 405's at 2000 fps in a #1 and a a Siamese Mauser 45-70 on some Gemsbok. They made HUGE holes you could literally push a golf ball through but none exited and the jackets separated. Called a Rem rep and he said the 405's were designed to work best at MV's under 1600 fps. So...that is the velocity I've kept them at and they worked very well.

One thing I discovered with mine, the harder I pushed it the less accurate it became. I think the thin/short chambers and thin barrel walls probably contribute to that. Pretty much any good 400gr hard cast or jacketed bullet at 1600 fps will be pretty effective on any NA game and African PG.

Have fun at the range.





I have several boxes of the 400 grain Speer SP-FN bullets that I can load up to Trapdoor pressure levels for the MP-221.

The Speer 400 grainers are much like the Green Box 405 grainers in that they are designed to perform best at moderate velocities.

The Remy 405 grainers are hard to come by where I am. I don't see Remy bulk bullets for sale on line or on the shelves in the shops and stores like they used to be.

Last edited by pricedo; 08/31/12.

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#6828560 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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Pricedo:

You use max level "Trapdoor" and mid level Lever Action loads all day.

Hodgdon Reloading Data Tables

The 405 Rems are hard to find now everywhere. I had really stocked up on bulk boxes a few years ago. Rumor has it that Rem is to make another "run" of them sometime yet this year.

#6828606 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: M3taco]  
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Originally Posted by m3taco
Pricedo:

You use max level "Trapdoor" and mid level Lever Action loads all day.

Hodgdon Reloading Data Tables

The 405 Rems are hard to find now everywhere. I had really stocked up on bulk boxes a few years ago. Rumor has it that Rem is to make another "run" of them sometime yet this year.


Watched an all in french bench shooting demo/review of the MP-221 online featuring a rather jolly looking Frenchman that I'm sure you must have encountered in your websurfing and I'm sure he was shooting the Hornady LeveRevolution 325 grain FTX factory ammo that is well above Trapdoor pressure levels in the later part of the video.


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#6828876 - 08/31/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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Pricedo:

The 45-70 325gr Leverevolution are good rounds but they are not that hot. 45-70 Leverevolution

Note that out of a 24" barrel they are 2050fps with 3032 ft-lbs of energy. Go back over to the Hodgdon Reloading tables under Trapdoor 45-70 loads. While it doesn't specifically list a 325gr projectile it does list a 300gr jacketed at 2221fps that translates to 3287 ft-lbs of energy and 27600 CUP and that is under 28K PSI or at least very close to it.

Just as a comparison a 350gr bullet at 2275fps produces 4023 ft-lbs of muzzle energy....legal for DG in all African countries.

Edited to add: I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SUGGESTING TO TRY AND PUSH YOUR RIFLE TO THOSE LEVELS. In a 45-70 size case you are pushing/exceeding 50,000 psi.

Last edited by m3taco; 08/31/12.
#6830369 - 09/01/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: M3taco]  
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Originally Posted by m3taco
Pricedo:

The 45-70 325gr Leverevolution are good rounds but they are not that hot. 45-70 Leverevolution

Note that out of a 24" barrel they are 2050fps with 3032 ft-lbs of energy. Go back over to the Hodgdon Reloading tables under Trapdoor 45-70 loads. While it doesn't specifically list a 325gr projectile it does list a 300gr jacketed at 2221fps that translates to 3287 ft-lbs of energy and 27600 CUP and that is under 28K PSI or at least very close to it.

Just as a comparison a 350gr bullet at 2275fps produces 4023 ft-lbs of muzzle energy....legal for DG in all African countries.

Edited to add: I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SUGGESTING TO TRY AND PUSH YOUR RIFLE TO THOSE LEVELS. In a 45-70 size case you are pushing/exceeding 50,000 psi.


You're a life saver. Good thing you added the cautionary addendum cause I was just heading out onto the range to test a bunch of 50,000 psi loads in a gun I know nothing about, have never fired before and with barrel walls like tissue paper. grin crazy


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#6831753 - 09/01/12 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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I think the core moral of the thread is that when you're dealing with Rossis, the newer Marlins (Remlins), & Baikals the rule "buyer beware" takes on a greater significance.
QC is a sporadic variable & there are no realistic expectations of a minimum level of quality or workmanship.
In other words when you open the box "What you see is what you get."


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#8015128 - 08/26/13 Re: 45/70 side by side [Re: pricedo]  
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Thanks for this thread guys - especially those of you who posted load data.


"Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." Psalm 37, verse 4.


"The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt." Proverbs 12:27
#11891155 - 03/11/17 Re: 45/70 side by side Baikal MP221 [Re: Abner]  
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Subject" Baikal MP 221.

Got mine adjusted finally. The adjustment is touchy, yes.

Did not succeed in solving the vertical offset, however: Shooting 425 gas check hard lead in the left barrel at 1850 fps and Barns 300g TXSFB in the right at 2120 fps was the solution. At 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards the barrels are within 1" of each other and horizontally equal, without crossing over. These loads do not exceed the MAX pressure stamped on the barrel, and are achieved with AA2495 powder. You can find them on AMMOGUIDE.com. Look at loads posted by frhunter13.

What I am still struggling with is the scope mount. My rings have walked all the way to the rear sight where they have stabilized.

Anyone find good rings for this tiny 11mm rail? I am about to pull the scope off and drill and tap two stop screws in the rail so the darn rings cant walk!

As for a game taker, it is better than many say and does have a place world wide.

Last edited by frhunter13; 03/11/17.
#11896684 - 03/13/17 Re: 45/70 side by side Baikal MP221 [Re: frhunter13]  
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Get a set of GOOD quality air rifle rings with the set screw that will go down into the lug recess at the back of the quarter rib, or pay the price for a mount for a Valmet 412, which fits the quarter rib and has a lug that fits the recess in the quarter rib.

That will also solve your QD problem. Mind worked like a charm.



Hunt with Class and Classics


"Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt"



...and...now...goodbye
#11900859 - 03/15/17 Re: 45/70 side by side Baikal MP221 [Re: luv2safari]  
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Ordered a set of Pryramid Air rings with the set screw. My rings are very good ones, but expected a slot. I will still drill and tap my own stop screws as long as I am pulling the scope! Thanks for the advice. They are too proud of that Valmet ring set! I am wondering why no third party people are making mounts for the Baikal. There seem to be enough out there.

#11936140 - 03/29/17 Re: 45/70 side by side Baikal MP221 [Re: Abner]  
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Shot the Baikal Sunday after the scope base mods. With the chrony this time, I get 1835fps with 425g Lead gas checked in the left barrel. I get 2280fps from the 300 Barns all copper spitzer flat base in the right barrel. After tightening the screw a bit I got (a small adjust) I get at 75 yards left shoots 5/8" left, right shoots 5/8" right, 0 high. I am confident I can hit 4" gong at 100 yards with either barrel.

So this is a now go to rifle for anything on this continent as long as it is fairly close.

About ALL I can expect from the Baikal MP 221. That is actually 1 1/4" between barrels at 75 yards.

Last edited by frhunter13; 03/29/17.
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