Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Blue Dot Load Disaster

I am enclosing a link that was sent to me by a friend last night.
That friend, I believe is aware of my enormous fear of "squib loads" in Rifle cartridges.
After reading the following and observing the pictures contained at this linked to site, it should put an end to anyone even considering using NON-POWDER COMPANY RECOMMENDED loads - of any kind!

Link to follow: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/8131029301

Better safe than sorry!
The catastrophic results that can happen when trying to save a few cents or to make a Rifle/cartridge "DO" what it was not intended to do - IS NOT WORTH THE MANIFOLD AND LIFE THREATENING RISKS!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

One might also conclude that having a wife causes guns to fail, VG. It was her distraction that led to the man's decanting two charges into that case.

Nobody ever said that double-charging isn't dangerous. All of us who use such loads are aware of the danger - and take stern measures to avoid it. Double-charging applies to more than Blue Dot loads. Many good target revolvers have been blown apart with double charges of Bullseye - and that IS a recommended powder for .38 Specials. We could say the same for many cartridge/powder combinations.

VG, your crusade against Blue Dot is well known. Your concerns have real merit, and reloaders should take note of them. It is merely your blanket condemnation that is irksome.

Rocky Raab: ANYONE - and that includes YOU - that tries to rationalize away the dangers of using squib loads or using powders in cartridges NOT recommended by the powder manufacturer is simply - ASKING FOR TROUBLE/INJURY!
I have had friends who have injured themselves while handloading!
They are humans - they make mistakes like all humans do - they also felt they were infallible and invincible, BEFORE, their accidents!
I would NOT consider my warning to be a crusade - I consider it to be just what I said it was - squib loads are not worth the risk of injury and finacial loss that they inherently bring with them!
I would not know a Blue Dot flake of powder from Adam or Eve.
I have never loaded any cartridge, ever, with Blue Dot!
I hope the Blue Dot manufacturer does well.
Nope, your rationalizations are NOT convincing to me in the least!
Rocky, look AGAIN - CAREFULLY - at the destruction caused that strong Rifle by the use of "squib loads"!
And look carefully at that piece of the action that was blown apart and bent back to the extreme - towards the shooters face/skull!
I contend, if that small bit of steel holding that long piece of action had failed (along with the rest of the action!), that piece of steel could have went through the humans skull - killing him!
THANK GOD that did not happen!
I am not the type of person that hesitates to state my opinion but I seldom if ever tell folks what to do - in this regard though, I AM telling anyone considering squib loads in a Rifle NOT to do it.
The enclosed pictures are "Exhibit A" in my contention.
DON'T DO IT - IT'S NOT WORTH IT!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hmm..kinda puts into perspective what we are doing. FWIW The Lyman (48th) specifically lists several pistol powders for reduced loads in .223. I do intend on trying some reduced loads with blue dot & also SR4759...I also plan on paying close attention to what I'm doing...as I do every time I'm at the loading bench...I'm also wondering what the result might have been had he FAILED to put a charge in at all...Might there have been enough pop in the primer to lodge one in the barrel??? Might he have been distracted enough not to realize what might have happened??? My take on reduced loads is the same as any other load...you need to pay attention to WTF you're doing at all times.

It wasn't a squib load, my friend. It was an accidental double charge. Those are polar opposite things.

The Lyman manual contains hundreds of tested and recommended loads using flake shotgun powders with cast bullets, in both rifle and handgun cartridges of all shapes and sizes. So the practice is hardly unknown or frowned upon. That's not the powder manufacturer, but Lyman is hardly a source without authority in the reloading field. So we are not rationalizing in the least.

Nor have any proponents urged that the practice be undertaken blithely. Indeed, all of us have repeatedly urged extreme caution, offered ways to exercise it and even said if anyone is the least reluctant to try it, don't.

This topic is clearly the sand spur in your sandal. Looked at objectively, yours is the only strident and fanatic voice. Perhaps that might cause you to step back and consider your position. Or at least wipe the foam from your lips, LOL.

Allow me to say once again, the nugget of your argument is sound. Accidents can indeed happen if mistakes are made. But you take it too far when you suggest that accidents WILL happen, no matter what care is taken to avoid mistakes.

Rocky,

Well thought out, and well said.

Thanks,

Steve

After years of listening to a particular forum member rail about the merits of using pistol powder in rifle handloads...its actually not surprising at all. Yes it can happen in pistol rounds but its much less likely using powders designed specifically for rifles in rifles. I suspect there is a reason bullet/loading data providers don't do this. May be they realize what a huge problem it can be.

All that money the guy saved by using Blue Dot (what other reason could there possibly be to do this) might be enough to buy a case of beer but probably not enough to buy a casket and funeral.

Gathering loading data from forum threads is like playing catch with grenades.

"Rail" is not a word I would use except for those who are against the practice. Those who argue for it have calmly and rationally suggested that for certain purposes, and with all due precautions taken, reduced loads can be useful, practical - and safe.

I have never tried "Reduced" loads before but have to say I'm looking forward to it.

MM, do follow the guidelines set forth by Seafire for Blue Dot loads, or my own observations about using Unique or RedDot.

Weigh every charge. After weighing, funnel the charge into a primed case, then immediately seat the bullet. Do it that way and only that way and you will be fine.

I use an electronic dispenser, so every charge is weighed automatically, but a drum measure (or even dippers) will work fine with a beam scale.

Thanks Rocky...I've got it covered...no worries here.

Should also note the amount of guns (with published loads) blown up with Bullseye, especially handguns.

Of course the initial loads were published, yet they are no longer "published" when the reloader doubles it.

No load is safe with the muzzle pointed at someone and the gun cocked either, just for clarification..

Sound advice there. I was taught that way was THE ONLY way to load rifle cartridges.

RH

RockRaab: NO, it TURNED OUT NOT TO BE A SQUIB LOAD!
BUT - it WAS intended to be a SQUIB LOAD!
It turned out to be a BOMB!
Therein lies the horrific danger of "squib loads" - when HUMANS are trying to make "squib loads" (squib meaning smallish firecracker - among other things "small"!) there then comes right along with that, the ability to "DOUBLE CHARGE" ones "squib loads"!
One of the best rules I follow in my handloading is to NEVER use a load that does not fill the case at least 95% - that way if somehow some extra powder gets into the case do to some human error, and is not detected - then when that round is fired it normally would not be catastrophic like what happened to the 257 Weatherby shooter.
Again RockyRaab - NO amount of rationalization on your part makes "squib loading" any LESS DANGEROUS!
It just doesn't.
Rationalizing MAY make you feel better about what you are doing but that is false security and it does NOT make squib loading any less dangerous - making and using squib loads is dangerous (witness the associated pictures on this thread!)!
Period.
Even IF the Blue Dot squib load dangers could be described as the "burr in my sandal" that would still NOT make the practice of "squib loading" any less dangerous!
My feelings have NOTHING to do with the catastrophic detonation of that Rifle!
NOT ONE BIT less dangerous - irregardless of ANYONE'S feelings!
Again simply witness the catastrophic detonation that destroyed that modern armament, scope and stock!
How much did that one "tiny" human error cost the perpetrator?
New Rifle - new scope - new rings - new bases - shipping Rifle to manufacturer, trip to emergency room, follow-up trips to Doctors?
$1,000.00?
$2,000.00?
$10,000.00?
Think how much it would have cost if he had to have surgery on an eye?
Think how much it would have cost if he had to have surgery on his brain?
Think what it would have cost him if that barrel or a part from that action had struck a human at an adjoining shooting bench?
$100,000.00?
Complete and lasting financial ruination?
I again express my thanks that more physical harm was not done to anyone in this squib load detonation incident!
I think it is ABSOLUTELY IRRESPONSIBLE for anyone to advocate or rationalize squib loading Rifles!
I have seen enough injured and screaming human beings to last 25 lifetimes - it makes me sick to think anyone would risk injuring their face, eyes, head, hands and brain to try to save a few cents on a squib load!
If the powder manufacturers DON'T recommend a load - DON'T USE IT!
Period.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I happen to shoot a lot of squib loads in rifles, some of them suppressed. I must state that none of my squib loads are intended to save money; they all have a specific purpose.
Bullseye and Accurate No. 2 are particular favorite powders of mine for the 7.62 X 39mm and the 308 Winchester. I take care when charging cases to charge one case at a time and seat the bullet immediately.
The important step to remember is the establishment of a load plan. One case charged at a time almost eliminates the possibility of a double charge � there are no guaranties in life.
I started shooting my fathers squib 308 loads when I was 8, riding motorcycles when I was 12, skydiving when I was 16 and flying when I was 18. I may have turned my parent�s hair prematurely grey but establishing a plan and sticking to it helped prevent accidents � it did not eliminate accidents.

I was gonna use blue dot in my .380 acp. sounds dangerous though now.......

just kidding. use it for what its intended is my motto. nothing against those that want to experiment, but know the risks. I heard of a guy using Unique in a .300 WM. he was a rookie using his uncles press, so he just took the casings, scooped them full of "powder" and seated a bullet and away he went to the range. blew the bold straight back, nicking his cheek and scaring the crap out of the guys at the range that day.

I don't see how a reduced Blue Dot load is any more dangerous than any other loading screw up. If we mess something up, such a double charge, then we ought to expect a blown gun.

Most of us using reduced loads take a number of steps to prevent double charges.

I use blue dot in 243 and 223, neither of my loads will allow a double charge without overflowing the case. Any reloading mistakes can be dangerous. I wouldnt blame the powder...

Bottom line for me is...If I wasn't completely comfortable with it I wouldn't do it. I'm not looking to save money, OTOH it is a fringe benefit. About 45 yrs. back (when I first started loading)I managed to pop a primer with a HOT .270 load while shooting a small buck...I thought I had blinded myself in one eye.
It took probably a good hour of sitting there for it to finally stop watering enough for me to get up & find the deer.
Since that time I've become quite a bit more anal in every aspect of reloading. One mistake CAN end up being your last.
Reloading is a pretty safe way to produce TOP SHELF ammo...BUT YOU GOTTA FOLLOW THE RULES & pay attention to WTF you're doing.

I had a load disaster once....

I don't believe in blown up guns any more than President Obama was born in New Mexico...somewhere around area 51.

This is how I have reloaded for several years to avoid any problems with charging.

I kind of think VG is a little overwrought on this. Sin Number One was being distracted. Sin Number Two, well, I can't imagine trying BD in a 257 WBY. That case is huge. A double charge in that thing would be a pretty serious kaboom. So, I pretty much limit my Blue Dot to small cases...FB, 223 and 22BR, and really don't have much desire to try it in larger cases.

I'd like to point out, that before I was aware that VG had posted this, I posted the exact same link on the Big rifle Reloading Forum here...

I want people to know the facts on this, and the author who lost his firearm admits that it was his accidental fault of doing a double charge, having been distracted by the wife and being in a rush to get to the range to test things out..

It had to do with paying attention, and doing safe load techniques... which he admitted not doing, and he is a very experienced handloader...

VG is right in the fact, if you don't know what you are doing, can't pay attention, or don't have safe handloading practices, or allow yourself to simply get distracted... then reduced loads are not for you....

Load slower than needed powder in a case, and you'll never have to worry about this sort of stuff happening...4831 or H 1000 and you'll never have something like this happen in a 223...

the key point here is that thank goodness no one was seriously injured.. secondly the gentleman who suffered this, was kind enough to bring it to folks attention.. and thirdly was man enough to admit his mistake instead of just blaming it on the powder....

cast bullet shooters and handgun shooters have had to pay attention to details like this forever....

if someone is going to handload.. it is his responsibility to make sure that his load techniques are safe, and that his handloads are safe...

I admit to having communication with this gentleman before this happened.. recommended load minimums and max's.. based on work with the 7 Rem Mag, the 300 Win Mag and the 338 Win Mag...

I also remember highly recommending that SR 4759 would also be a good choice, particularly in a Magnum case, that is what I personally use.. and tons of reload data is floating around for that cartridge...Lyman's cast manual lists 2400 and Unique for reduced loads in the 257 Weatherby, and both of their max loads listed in that manual can be double charged in a 257 W case...

in fact looking thru the Lyman Cast Manual # 3, there are a lot of loads listed that can be easily double charged...

I don't see where blaming this on any one powder accomplishes anything...

it was a safety issue and not paying attention...

Rocky,

+1 sir...

Guns don't kill people, people do.

You misuse a tool, it can get you.

Somewhere, the original poster missed this.

Thanks.

If we agree with VG, then we shouldn't use handloads at all, because it is inherently dangerous. We certainly shouldn't be using full-power loads, because of the danger of using the correct weight of the wrong powder. (That's the exact flip side of using the wrong amount of the correct powder, as in double charging.) If a reloader uses a load that is recommended, but grabs the wrong can of powder, there could be a disaster.

I'm not really suggesting we shouldn't handlaod. It was meant to show the fallacy of our friend VG's reasoning. But the point I made is valid: in almost every instance of this type accident, it wasn't a bad load problem, it was a bad loadER problem.

In the event referenced in the link, there may have been TWO loader errors. The first may have been the loader's decision to use Blue Dot IN THAT CARTRIDGE, which may not be suited to BD loads at all. The second was, obviously, in allowing himself to be distracted enough to double-charge a case and not catch it.

The first point might be debated. I myself would say that the 257 Weatherby is absolutely not a candidate for this class of loads. That discussion would require too much space here to pursue, so let's leave it at the point where the loader's decision is at least questionable. Emphasis on HIS DECISION: a loader problem.

The next point is not debatable. He allowed a distraction to compromise the procedures of reloading, resulting in what was probably a double-charged case. There are ways to interrupt and safely resume the reloading process, but he did not follow them: it was again a loader problem.

If we abandon every aspect of reloading that might result in an accident, whether that be load choice or load procedure, we are left with no reloading possibility at all. But the source of every possible error is not in the components (they cannot assemble themselves), it is in the operator.

The link depicts not a handload disaster, but a handloadER disaster.

What possible reason could there be for doing this. I guess I just don't get it. To save money ? If you want a reduced load to the point of trying DA stuff like this maybe you should just buy a smaller gun.
With all the safe combinations of powders you could use in any modern rifle chambering what would make you want to do something that stupid. At best you might save a few pennies per rounds, at worst you could die. Just seems kinda DA to me.

Except when working up loads, I load all of my handgun and rifle rounds with a typical mechanical powder measure. After I get the rounds in the loading block charged, I put the black under a light and see if the powder levels in all the cases look the same. This takes only a few seconds and seems to work.

JB, I look into every case, also. I do mine one at a time, though. My memory isn't so shot that I can't recall what the last one looked like 17 seconds ago!

SKB, the point of the thing is to have a rifle capable of doing several jobs. You can have smaller rounds (most of us do) but that isn't true flexibility, unless you carry all your rifles around at once like golf clubs. Even with full-power loads, I'd bet that you have a deer load, an elk load and perhaps even a predator load. That's flexibility. Adding a load that's lighter still simply adds to the range of things you can do with that rifle. Not all cartridges are capable of this practice, however. The one in question (IMHO) is an example of one totally unsuited to reduced loads - ANY reduced load.

I throw all my charges with a measure, have all the cases in a loading block, then take a flashlight and look at the powder level in them all before ever seating a bullet. This is just the correct procedure to double check a double charge. It also will let you know immediately if you had some bridging and a light charge in one.

I agree this procedure works with our so called "standard reloading practice's", but with the Blue Dot loads as discussed here, in my opinion it won't work well. Why? Because the charge level is deep enough in the case that it is difficult to reliably judge the level by eye. Standard loading as practiced by most of on the 'Fire will recognize the validity of eyeballing the powder level before topping with a bullet, provided it is somewhere near the case neck.

My own procedure using a measure with Blue Dot is to set the empty cases on the right side of the measure, and the charged cases on the other. I pick up a case with the right hand, shift it to the left, use the right to operate the handle, then put the charged case in the block to the left of the loading press. I then check the entire lot of charged cases with a dowel (inserted into the charged case) that is marked with a reference line that is even with the top of the case for the charge dropped. This instantly shows any case that has any significant deviation from the norm. Even a few tenths off can be recognized easily in my experience. If the line isn't visible, its light; if it has space between it and the case mouth, its heavy and is dumped back and recharged.

It isn't rocket science. Its paying attention to detail. As poor as I am, I'm not too poor to pay attention.

Why handle them twice? I suppose if you have extra time, but I don't. I prefer to handle them once, believing it faster as well as safer.

My reason for wanting to do it is simple...I don't want to blow to hell any more bobcats...most of the coyotes around here have crap pelts & are a dime a dozen, although I've taken a couple that were really nice...I've got a new .223 on the way & fully intend on putting reduced loads down the tube...I DON'T think it's a DA thing to do...OTOH I think it's a very smart thing to do. A light 40-45 gr. bullet over 6-7 gr. of blue dot ought to work just fine...Lyman has guite a few loads listed that utilize "Pistol" powder.
If I can come up with both reduced & full loads that shoot to pretty close the same vertical POI at 100 yds. I'll be really happy...IF I can come up with A combination that shoots the 53 gr. TSX, along with a full load "yote" round AND a reduced load for bobcats & tree rats, I'll indeed be quite satisfied...kinda like carrying three guns at once.
Even if I can't come up with something that works EXACTLY like I would like, I'm sure I can come close...It WILL be fun to try anyway...YMMV

Sounds like a pretty valid method to me...might be a better & more efficient way than weighing each individual charge...

I do weigh each charge while working up. Once I decide on the best charge (or charges, sometimes I will find 2 sweet spots a grain or 2 apart) I will make a dedicated dowel rod for that caliber and charge.

I should also clarify that I use a Harrell's powder measure; I tried my RCBS Uni-flow and found that it gave me more variation than the Harrell's. I was weighing each charge until I fell into the Harrell's for a price I couldn't turn down. IIRC, its their benchrest version and will only drop up to about 25 grains or so of a more "standard" rifle powder, such as is used in benchrest shooting. With the Blue Dot, seldom does it vary more than about 2 tenths.

As to the question of why would someone want to shoot reduced loads in a 257 Wby?

Lets face it, what is the barrel life span of a 257 Wby?
if someone practices with it in the off season, he can burn the barrel out in a year or two at most...

however loading it down to 250 Savage velocities or even 25/35 Win velocities, he can have a relatively long barrel life, and do a lot of off season practice....

if anyone decides to purchase a magnum cartridge, then wants to use it for other items off season, such as varmint hunting or range practice... reduced loads allow them to do that with that particular firearm...without wearing it out prematurely...

I still don't understand the criticizm of others who think differently from the person who owned the firearm....

he had a reason for wanting to try reduced loads in THAT cartridge...regardless of case size, they all have safe ranges...

some choose those 'safe ranges' published straight from a book.. others don't find those ranges published at the velocities that they choose to have.. so they are left to experimenting, or forums such as this allow others to exchange info...

several powder recommendations were made to the individual that suffered this mishap... he had requested Blue Dot info but I also recommended and gave him info for use of SR 4759 and 4198...

this entire affair is about safety and paying attention... not an argument on what powders to use or avoid... or not whether it is a wise or dumb choice to want to use a reduced load in your firearm.. its a personal choice...

and if it isn't a choice you want to make then don't... but where do people come off questioning the intelligence of people who chose to do so?

instead of a double charge, what if the person had put only a half charge of some powder like 4831, and this happened.. as it has been known to do....

what argument would all the naythsayers be using then?

because it is just as easy to put a double charge of a fast powder in a case, as it is to put a half charge of a slow powder in a case.. but ending up with the same results...

its called paying attention, not being hurried, not being distracted.. and having a plan if you are distracted to maintain safety....

lets face it, when we handload, you can never avoid your wife, wanting your attention for "just a minute" or 'Just a second'....

When that happens to me, I dump out the powder of the case I am working on, turn it upside down and know where I left off, and know I am starting clean on a cartridge...

because if your wife is any different than my wife, if I don't give her immediate attention when she wants it, she feels all rejected and hurt... and when you try to explain this safety reasons that you just can't stop in the middle of loading something, then they get all pissed off or defensive like you are blaming something on them...

my wife isn't a handloader, she doesn't understand this or care to understand it... she acts like she is being a saint by "letting me" have a firearm and hunt and shoot to begin with...

I am sure most wives are not different.... I have no control over her moods and expectations in a marriage.. but I do have control over my own load safety techniques at the reload bench...

and as far as load techniques... I use a beam scale, (RCBS 505).. Lee Powder dippers, and I charge then seat a bullet before going onto the next one....

not the fastest way, but I learned it was much more safer...and controlable for ME in the long run...

and rushing at the reload bench is not a reason to be there...

I sent a PM to the person that this happened to, and just received a PM back from him explaining to me what he did wrong....

I have asked his permission to post his response to my PM.. which essentially asked what charge was he attempting to do?

if he gives me permission, I will post it

however I can pass on, that the charge he indicated he was doing in the rifle case was 24 grains of Blue Dot in the 257 WBY case...

That load is very safe in a 25/06, so would have been more than safe in a 257 WBY... however a double charge wouldn't have overflowed the case....

however if permission is given to post his explanation of the circumstances, I will do so...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...&topic=0&Search=true#Post2278392

Take a look at the Hercules (now Alliant) data; yep, powder manufacturer's have provided Blue Dot (and Unique!) rifle cartridge recipes!

Greg

I used BlueDot in both handgun and rifle jacketed loads long before I even knew there was a Seafire - I still do. Like any other propellant, it is safe to use within its pressure envelope by careful, knowledgeable handloaders. I use the term handloaders rather than reloaders because - like another certain writer - I believe that the latter folks load just to shoot, while the former folks load to....load. Someone who is truely involved in the hobby of handloading can handle BlueDot just fine.

I gotta giggle when I read posts here that condemn a particular loading practice as unsafe or unhealthy. Kinda reminds me of the gomint telling us we can't eat Big Macs because they aren't healthy for us and someone might die because they et one. Or wanting to take our guns away from us because - dang it - they are dangerous. Rather than trying to beat us into submission because we don't happen to agree with them, why don't they STFU and stop trying to be our mommy. Let us take personal responsibility for our actions - now there's an interesting concept! We don't need no one telling us how to be safe. We can take the hint.


.

Giggle away. Just don't see the point. Handloaded for 37 years, I guess I'd qualify as truly involved. You can load'em anyway you want....not likely I will ever STFU.

You're only about 20 years of experience short, then. Perhaps that explains things.

Skb2706: AMEN!
On your brilliant and YET so obvious an observation!
WHAT possible reason could there be to RISK your fingers, your eyes, your face, your brain EVERY time you pull the trigger on a "squib load" or a "Blue Dot load" in a Rifle?
There IS NO rational reason!
There is NO rational reason for turning your hobby into a game of "Russian Roulette" every time you pull the trigger on a "squib load" or "Blue Dot loads" in a Rifle!
Thats WHY those that rationalize this sort of dangerous practice MUST maintain their air of superiority - their air of SUPER HUMANITY - their air of infallibility - their air of invincibility!
I have news for them - the fellow that blew up his expensive Rifle and scope and narrowly escaped life threatening injuries USED TO HAVE that same air of invicibility!
He doesn't anymore.
He NOW realizes he is just a regular old human being and like all regular old human beings he is subjet to making a mistake!
Trouble is, the mistake he was able to make would NOT have been achieveable had he used a powder recommended for his caliber - and that useage of "squib loads" and/or "Blue Dot loads" in a Rifle COMPOUNDED his human error.
Compounded that situation into a life threatening one!
"Squib loading" a Rifle is both irrational and irresponsible!
I would no more knowingly sit at a bench alongside a "squib loaded" cartridge shooter than I would play golf in a lightning storm!
Sure you could get away with golfing in a lightning storm some of the time BUT like skb2706 asks - WHY risk it?
Along with exhibit #1 (the exploded Rifle and scope!) and the shooters injuries - I have to place into evidence the fact that NONE of MY loading manuals show any "squib loads" for 257 Weatherby Rifles!
Nor for 223 Rifles!
Nor for any other Rifle caliber I can find!
That exhibit #2 is a very STRONG bit of evidence that the practice of "squib loading" or "Blue Dot loading Rifles" is not recommended.
I.E. - UNSAFE!
Skb2706, it has to be pointed out that the "invincible" rationalizers will not speak to my point where I ask "what happens to the folks alongside you when you are playing Russian Roullete with your squib loaded Rifles"?
Are they invincible as well?
Or are they lesser human beings than the aforementioned "rationalizers" are?
Puzzling - if the Blue Dot rationalizers can juxtapose an air of invincibility upon themselves why not impose that "invincibility" on the person at the next bench or on everyone in their shooting party - the answer is THEY CAN'T!
So why embark on this risky and dangerous business in the first place?
You hit it - dead on.
There is no rational answer to that!
If the loading manuals DON'T list it - DON'T LOAD IT!
Period!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The problem, VG is that (as has been shown here now several times and with several sources), loading manuals DO list such loads.

Is it Russian Roulette to fire ANY handload? There are many ways to mess up a handload, from using the wrong powder or the wrong amount of powder, to using the wrong weight bullet. Why, we can even use brass with a different headstamp, thus leading to inserting an incorrect cartridge in the rifle.

Clearly, your own kind of handloading is just as foolhardy.

Skb2706: Add to your 37 years experience MY 50 years of handloading experience - I had to virtually self teach myself to handload. I was given a handloading tool by an older friend who gave me verbal instructions of how to handload Rifle ammunition when I was 12 years old!
My family could NOT afford factory ammunition so if I wanted to shoot I had to scrounge and borrow and pick up pop bottles and deliver papers and work in Bean fields during the summers - just so I could buy components to make ammo for my fathers sporterized army surplus Rifle!
My mentor EMPHASIZED at every possible opportunity that safety was of utmost importance when handloading.
I wish more people shared that philosophy!
So add to our combined 87 years experience the reaction of my devout Hunting companion and gunsmith friend - he said "what kind of f***ing idiot would use Blue Dot powder in a Rifle"?
This man is 70 years old and a lifelong handloader as well - he is also a trained gunsmith, retired Army Officer, NRA Certified Safety Instructor, lifelong firearms advocate and all around "careful" kind of guy!
This reaction came after I had printed out a picture of the aforementioned "squib load" "Blue Dot in a Rifle" disaster pictures and showed it to him. He was actually OFFENDED that someone in the shooting fraternity would do something so "stupid and dangerous"!
And again I reiterate this language came form a person who is devout and I had never heard that particular wording come from his mouth before!
Take note of the gigglers and pray for the best, for them.
Even if the 3 of US had only 3 years handloading experience it STILL DOES NOT RATIONALIZE AWAY the inherent catastrophic dangers of "squib loading"!
I wish our "pretending to be others mothers" WASN'T needed, but OBVIOUSLY it is!
I could care less if irrational and irresponsible handloaders call me names or try to insult me - that is another sign of poor decision making on their part - I do care that some people are doing dangerous things and I won't hesitate to try and correct that dangerous behavior!
IF the handloading manuals DON'T show it DON'T LOAD IT!
Period!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG -
Who made you the God and overseer of all handloading knowledge and practices?

If you don't want to use Blue Dot or other reduced loads then don't, but get off of your high horse and settle down. We are adults here and we live in a country where there still remains some freedom of choice and if folks wish to use reduced loads then it is their choice not yours and your friends. Your air of superiority is disgusting, not to mention your constant reference to your "friends" who agree with you. To paraphrase your works "there is NO rational reason" why this should bother you so much except that you cannot stand to have anyone disagree with you.

Using your logic the 6 PPC, 6 BR, 22 PPC and even your beloved 204 could never have been developed because there was no published data for those cartridges.

Get over it. Just because some person was distracted and lost track of where he was in the reloading process does not mean that everyone else will do the same thing. Reloading carries with a responsibility to pay attention to what you are doing.

The wind must be blowing in the Dillon area today - it seems that all you have to do is get on the computer and rant.

drover

It appears as though all cartridge wildcatters and cast boolit shooters should do nothing more than admire their new work? I rather like shooting my 17AH, 17MIV, 20-222, and 25-223, not just waiting on a handloading manual to come along with load data (yeah, I know, the 17AH and 17MIV are now sorta "mainstream", with data available).
I won't use my years of handloading to proclaim I can't learn more about reloading; new information is appreciated.

Now it seems some are oblivious to the PRINTED data from Hercules, where Blue Dot was listed for rifle cartridge use. Maybe it's a "don't confuse me with facts...I know how I feel" syndrome.
The loads likely are no longer printed, due to lack of personal responsibility and fear of litigation, not any inherent risk.

Added: I don't offer a blanket endorsement of Blue Dot use in every rifle cartridge, but nor do I subscribe to a blanket condemnation of its use in rifle cartridges.

I started using Blue Dot in 223's with the 40g Bullets. I can shoot from 3000 fps to 3300 fps with extreme accuracy with very little powder.

BIG ADVANTAGE= cleaning the rifle every 500 rounds, vs 125 with full power loads.

Another advantage is a lack of barrel heat which equals a lack of barrel wear.

For close in squirrels, fur friendly for foxes, bobcats, and yotes, this is the perfect answer to a guy that would like to own a 22 hornet or 221 Fire Ball in a rifle...just use the 223.

One thing about Blue dot that I have found that it does not go through a powder measure very well, leading to powder bridging with a swing of about .5g at times which also happens with most stick powders including Varget.

Guys also use Blue dot in their 22/250's to achieve the same results above.

Blue Dot loads are not Squib loads, they are high pressure loads.

You do not see published info anymore, but there used to be loading data for about every shotgun powder made for use in rifles...700X, Red Dot, Unique, Herco, etc. Loading cast bullets in rifles using shotgun powder has been done since forever.

For the nay-sayers here that think that down-loading is a bad thing I have a question.....

Do any of you ever use .38's in your .357's? Why not just go out and buy a .38? Sounds like you bought a too big of a gun for the job....You do it because you can and it's safe. It's great practice and good plinking and for smaller game. Why not do it in a rifle?

That being said, I'm not a brave man. I've had a gun go up in my hands (case head seperated, bad brass) and it's not fun. I'll stick with published loads. That being said, Hodgdon publishes reduced loads and a 60% rule using ANY load that uses H4895. I'm thinkin about trying some in a 30/30 for small game, predators and varmints. Using hodgdons numbers I should be able to get 110 and 125 gr bullets down to around 1700fps.

Chris,

Try 18 to 20 grains of SR 4759.. I think you will find them a lot more accurate than the H4895 load.. and this is from published data floating around...pressure tested and all by the factory...so even the naythe sayers can't piss on these loads..

That's the way I do it.

For an additional current manual showing reduced load with pistol powders in rifles - try the 2008 Hodgdon Annual Manual, page 81:

.223 Remington, 55-grain Hornady FMJ
Tightgroup - 3.1 grains, 1064 fps
Clays - 3.2 grains, 1060 fps

Too bad Hogdon doesn't realize that those two powders are even faster than BlueDot, and are clearly unsafe in a rifle cartridge....


.

DoubleRadius: Are YOU willing to COMPLETELY ignore the exploded Rifle in question?
Are you willing to ignore what caused it?
And are you willing to ignore the inherent dangers that come with "squib loads"?
Are you willing to ignore the potential injuries you RISK every time you make a "squib load" and then go to shoot (detonate?) it?
In my wildest dreams I can not see the merit in risking these things!
And in my wildest dreams I can not see a need for a 1,060 FPS 55 grain bullet load in 223?
BUT, I can easily envison the common "human trait" that caused the "detonation" and subsequent destruction of the "squib loaders" Rifle!
That would not happen in a properly thought out handload.
One where the powder capacity of the handload is in the 95% full case range!
If you are willing to ignore the dangers and ignore the risk of injury and ignore all the things that can go wrong with "Blue Dot loads in Rifles" and in "squib loads" THEN you are doing a lot of ignoring!
I am not saying YOU are ignorant - BUT I am saying you are doing a LOT of ignoring!
I do agree with you when you post that "squib loads of pistol powder" in a 223 Rifle is "clearly unsafe"!
I checked my Hodgdon Manuals and they show NO loadings of the "squib type" and no loadings that give less than 2,797 FPS with any 55 grain bullet and powder combination in a 223.
If the newest manuals do show "squib loads" in them then I might suggest that they (the loading manual folks) are not doing anyone any favors by partaking of the "ignorance" of the additional dangers that come along with that.
Ignorance is bliss - some famous person once said!
Ignoring what "Blue Dot loads in a Rifle" can lead to is just that - IGNORANT!
Like someone else asked here, and I echoed, WHY risk it all?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I must admit to shaking my head a little here. I don�t want to argue about the value of subsonic loads as they are quite useful to me.
I have shot many 155-grain Lee gas check bullet � minus the gas check � ahead of 5.0 grains of Accurate Arms No. 2 in my 307Winchester. This load is good for 910 to 920 fps and is not position sensitive. If you have a desire to learn trigger control and improve your bench technique this load will do it.
The same Lee bullet ahead of 5.5 grains of Hodgdon Titewad will give me 1,090 fps.
5.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye will also run 1,090 fps.
With proper load technique these are safe and reliable loads � not just in my rifles but in many others as the Bullseye load has been around for at least 50 years � that�s how long I have been shooting it with a variety of 150-grain cast bullets. My father started me off on these as I was in the first grade the first time I popped a cap in a 308 Winchester rifle.

Subsonic loads are very important for certain kinds of varmint hunting. My 20� barrel 30-30AI performs very well with the 180-grain Lyman 311291 ahead of 3.5 grains of Accurate Arms No. 2 � this load giving me about 630 fps and remarkable accuracy.
4.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye behind the same Lyman 311291 in the 30-30AI is good for 915 fps and should be considered a �go-to load for sub-sonic shooting.

I could go on for quite awhile waxing ecstatic over the 7.62 X 39 using Ed Harris little spitzer cast bullet in a suppressed rifle.
With proper preparation and careful attention at the load bench there is no more danger preparing subsonic loads than any other type of reloading.

VG, the human error that caused the BOOM can easily happen in a published and "properly thought out handload". Have you ever seen how little Titegroup it takes per handgun cartridge? I'm sure it's not the only one that takes minuscule amounts of powder but it's VERY popular. Top that off with the fact that .357 cases are way over sized for 90+% of the loads out there using modern smokeless powder. Most .357 loads will fit in .38 cases but they had to make the .357 cases bigger just to keep people from using them in the .38's. Double charges are esay to do with titegroup, should we all stop using it?

My only kaboom of my creation was using H 414, and the scale had been bumped and not properly rezeroed.. an oversight on my part..
so I had an overload of H 414...which is pretty full in most cases to begin with...

I have had two kabooms using 25 grains of H 335 and 55 grains bullets.. which were not overloads...so who knows what happened there...

VarmintGuy's probb is that he can't get hardly any adults to kow-touw to his "reloading laws."

One thing I am grateful about however, is with all the bullshot we're seeing (and hearing about) from bamster and his thugs (AG Holder, Rohm Emmanual, et al) is that if it became necessary to scrounge components perhaps not ideal for every load we make, the expertise indeed still exists to create ammo that will shoot even to short ranges.

Two stories come to mind after reading about VG's rantings.

One was about an American guerilla in the Phillippine Isles during WW2 (a movie was made about him, after his story appeared in Reader's Digest), who told how the uderground made ammo to fight the Japanese early in the war.

Besides getting the ash from burnt-up palm trees to make improvised gunpowder, the guerillas used pieces of sharpened curtain rod for bullets!

The second story was about an English gamekeeper who learned how to reload shotshell primers using toy caps!

I haven't much used BlueDot because its too dirty for my tastes, but after reading this thread and seeing that grenade Weatherlee riffle, I need some excitement in my life!

Besides Bluedot, I'd like to experiment with some Trailboss, Unique and SR4756 and SR4759.

I even have some load recipes for some 2inch 12ga shells!

The reference to Hodgdon Titegroup certainly applies. Even in the 32 S&W Long there is quite a bit of air space.
Incidentally, the 2009 Hodgdon Annual Manual lists pressure tested Titegroup load data for 90-grain cast bullets in the 25-35 Winchester. The loads range from 5.0 to 7.0 grains leaving a lot of air space. The loads are quite low pressure ranging from 18,000 to 28,900 CUP.

Point well taken on the American Guerilla book. Here is a link to some stories on �Cats Sneeze� loads.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

NEVER LOAD AMMO WHILE DISTRACTED.


ATTENTION TO DETAIL.

Stubbleduck:

There is no experimenting with Trail Boss...

it is designed for the cowboy action shooting guys...

you can't get enough in the case to cause enough pressure to blow anything up...

it is VERY bulky... looks like little Cherrios...size of oatmeal flakes..

to put into perspective, 15 grains or so fills up a 30/06 case...
10 grains fills a 30/30 case...

it is meant to shoot a bullet at the max of about 1200 fps...

SR 4756 is tricky powder...can pressure spike quickly..but is great in the 444... very accurate.. assume the same for a 45/70..

SR 4759 is the easiest, and will take the wild side out of it, since there is a lot of cast bullet data, and even factory IMR Data floating around with jacketed bullets for it...

I use it more and more, basically because of all the flak from the naythsayers over Blue Dot...I still consider it safe, watching and using proper safe load techniques...

Seafire,
This is a little off topic , so I will apologize in advance. In regards to Trailboss, I've been looking for a load that would send a 250 grain bullet about 1000-1200 fps out of my 460 Smith. It sounds like Trailboss might be a good candidate for that job. Any concerns?

Do be advised that IMR says Trail Boss is NOT to be used with jacketed bullets.

Quote from their own website: "Trail Boss was designed specifically for low velocity lead bullets suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder but has some application in rifles."

The word "specifically" means it has no other intended uses.

That could be a concern. Thanks!

Thank you Seafire! For the few unasked-for but VERY USEFUL details on those propellents!

My only experience with SR4756 is that it can make some excellent +P .38spec SWC loads that make one take notice.

Trailboss sounds like its right up my alley! Sunsonic squib loads.

SR4759 will be a totally new animal for me.

Rick.

I am not going to step on what Rocky says..

I have to admit using it with Jacketed bullets in rifles...

particularly so far with 30/06 and 30/30...

I've also tried it in the 300 Win Mag, that did fine with it...

I've also played with it in the 223, 22.250, and 243 so far..

oh and the 444...

All with Jacketed bullets..

so I'd first recommend following Rocky's advise...
as the same with me, I do differently at my own risk...

I don't think the issue is blowing up a case as it is low pressure... instead it is the potential of a stuck bullet in the bore...

I am sure you can accomplish the same using SR 4759 then..

I'm aware of that disclaimer.

But to be a devils advocate, what could be dangerous for someone shooting a copper or jacketed boolit?

And mind you I caught what was said by Seafire that very little (weight-wise) Trailboss will fill a case.

And that you (Rocky) have several times discussed your [pet] dirt-clod killer squib recipes, loaded with 10grns or so of Unique.

Working with such small amounts of Trailboss, would the pressures suddenly spike with jacketed pills?

Is there that big of a "friction" difference between lead [Pb] vs cupric or gilded pills?

Well, the word is actually a descriptor of designed. Read literally without inserting our own opinions, the quoted phrase means that the powder was designed with a specific use in mind - but nowhere does it say do not use it in other applications. Nor does it imply such, with a literal reading. The printed word has meaning, and we have to believe what the copy says just what it says - even if it is not what we want it to say.

Hodgdon does say this on page 71 of the 2008 Manual:

"LIL'GUN was designed to fit, meter and perform flawlessly in the 410 bore"

So, we can't use LIL'GUN in handguns because it was designed for shotguns? Somehow, I think not.....

This discussion is actually pretty worn out by now.


.

I'm not interested in pushing limits for the sake of pushing limits, but I am interested in understanding [better] some of the idiosyncrasies of some of the components we use. And I believe this helps me to better understand loads deemed "safe" in a reloading manual as well as knowing whether something fabricated or developed is a guarenteed disaster waiting to happen.

Some folks will say we shouldn't reload anything not found in a manual. But I recall Ken Waters and his "Pet Loads" column he wrote some years back. Waters personally came up with many loads he published (and many unsafe loads he didn't publish!), but he was a very careful man and reloader!

If anyone has a good understanding of the frictional differences between lead and jacketed bullets, please share what you know. Thanks!

I have not contacted IMR on this, but I have read that they found abnormal pressure indications when using Trail Boss with jacketed bullets. But since I haven't used TB at all, I'll not be upset if some here feel that disqualifies me from posting about it.

The difference between TB usage and reduced loads using Alliant shotgun/handgun/shotgun powders is that there are tested and published loads for rifles using Alliant powders. As noted several times in posts above, that holds for older as well as current data, and from several sources. That opens up the doors of experimentation a lot wider, in my opinion.

Lead bullets, whether swaged or cast, deform much easier and have a lower friction coefficient than jacketed bullets. That is well known. A load that is safe with a cast bullet will often produce lower velocities at higher pressures if a jacketed bullet is substituted.

Doubleradius, I can add to the word meaning dilemma. Hercules used to call Unique and 2400 RIFLE propellants, and printed that on the cans. But they published loads for handgun and shotgun with those same powders. Until IMR comments officially on it, I'll stand by my comments about what "specifically" means in regards to Trail Boss.

Rocky,
I believe we are drifting off topic but I do have some Trail Boss experiences to share here.
My father and I have loaded Trail Boss in several bottle-neck cartridges � primarily the 30-30 Winchester. We found that when Trail Boss is loaded to 100% density or with just the slightest amount of compression we experienced uniform and predictable results. When Trail Boss was loaded with what I would describe as �light-compression,� lets say 1/8 to 3/16� compression of the powder column; we would discover flattened primers and other visual indications of high-pressure. The indications were some times cratering at the firing pint indent on the primer and sticky extraction when shooting the rounds in lever action rifles.
Trail boss is a useful powder for its intended purpose and our experiences with light loads in the 45 Colt cartridge have been very satisfactory. Sad to say Trail Boss will not fill the gap left by the loss of the old bulk shotgun powder. For use with low velocity and sub-sonic rounds intended for rifles of recent manufacture I prefer small charges of fast powder.

Asking this from a "fresh" perspective ....

What are the "bulkiest" (most voluminous) propellents for making "reduced" loads?

Usually I've stayed away from Alliant/Hercules powders because they don't meter well through my measures and the ones i would use are quite dirty (but if making a reduced load and it was necessary, I wouldn't let that deter me and would use them).

I've read about BULK, although I don't know if I ever saw any of it anywhere.

PB I have seen.

At one time we had a quantity of IMR 4350 and we used it up shooting 200-grain cast bullets in the 356 and 358 Winchester rifles. 44.0 grains of IMR 4350 behind the 200-grain RCBS gas check bullet gave us a rough 1,820 fps from both the 20� and 22� barrels. There was some unburned powder but these were the most uniform loads I have ever chronographed with all strings having single digit extreme spreads. These loads were quite accurate at 50- and 100-yards.
This was a case full of powder and lightly compressed.

Stubble, the classic (I can't quite say original) powder for that job was and still is IMR's SR4759. It is very bulky, designed to fill up lots of case space. It also is very happy burning at reduced pressures, which makes it easy to light and clean to burn. But it can be hard to find on shelves. (It also has a name WAY too close to SR4756, which is a much faster flake pistol powder. Buying and using 4756 would be an all too easy mistake for somebody who had never seen both propellants before.)

PB is an even more shunned powder than IMR 4320, for some strange reason. Its name stems from "Porous Base" and it was one of several very early powders crafted during the changeover from black to smokeless. It's still a good one, and they must sell enough of it to justify keeping it in the product line, but I'll be jiggered if I've ever heard of anybody using it in anything. Maybe they're just keeping it a secret. Who knows? I have to confess, I've never tried it in anything, either. It might be just the thing for reduced loads.

Thank you Rocky. Didn't know 4320 was that unpopular if I understood you correctly. The others, not surprised they're not used "a lot."

I've heard of 4759 many times and have used (and noticed) 4756 could easily get confused with it.

One of the very first "accidents" I ever saw when I first started hunting (and when my own interest in personal "custom" loads began) was with a fairly nice O/U a fellow at the Ft Ord R&G Club had, and ruined when loading up for a duck hunt. The upper chamber was blown open and downward away from his eyes and face - leaving him VERY LUCKILY unscathed.

He joked to my dad and me "one barrel was for shooting ducks and the other was for the frogs!".

That was over 30yrs ago, and I don't remember the powders involved, but they could have been UNIQUE and HERCO, or BULLSEYE and UNIQUE. But I've never forgotten that gun.

Most accidents I've seen involve someone shooting steel shot in a full choked shotgun, when their bbl opens up like a daisy. (I once saw a Parker Hale 7mmRM where the bbl was blown open and half off because of an obstruction. Was good visual example of the pressures involved. )

Actually I'm always interested in "any accidents" anyone knows or wants to report about - to learn from them!

I also make it a point to collect any weird or damaged brass from any kind of less-than-"good" loads. Once when shagging brass at a popular public range, I eventually collected 18rds of .270 Weatherby mag where every primer pocket had been blown! Methinks the shooter would have gotten the hint after the second shot (if not the first!).

But from now on I will be searching for some PB and some 4759 till I find some. I believe all of the Dupont/IMR brands of shotshell propellent come in 8oz cans, which is actually nice - to better keep the second cans sealed (until usage) if I get lucky enough to find 1lb of each!

Of course when working with any loads a chronograph is a huge advantage, and I'll be sure my Chrony is working properly. I would definitely hate it if a pill got stuck in a barrel!

Regarding lead bullets, does the frictional coefficient change much in regard to the Brinnel hardness of the lead used?

Regardless, I agree copper is much, much harder than lead. Thanks again.

IMR 4320 is more overlooked than unpopular, might be a better way to say it. I called it "IMR's red-headed stepchild" in another thread.

I have no data to show that cast bullet friction changes with its BHN, but that doesn't mean there IS no data about it. It can't be much - at least as compared to gilding metal vs lead.

I've called Hodgdon on the use of Trail Boss in Rifles.. their only warning was not to compress it...make sure there is air space between the powder and the bullet...

I don't consider them reduced loads, but if you want a full case, in say a 223, but with low pressure and lower velocity, then using powders like 4831 or slower will accomplish the same thing.. it will have more recoil and since you are still burning 25 grains plus of powder, vs 10 to 13 grains on average for Blue Dot or 14 to 17 grains of SR 4759, it will have a louder retort...

I've also used Trail Boss in the 223 on some experiments to see what I got for results.. like every other cartridge, it is going to give you velocity in the 1200 fps range...

SR 4759 and Blue Dot are my favorite to use, because I can get decent velocities and accuracy out of each....in the 223 case..
however 2400 and both 4227s have also been used for the same...

however they are not as bulky, which makes the chances of a double load possible, unless you are loading for max velocity potential... I have also found them more erractic, less accurate and actually prefer to use something like either 4198 over 2400 or 4227....

Until recently IMR 4320 was the powder for high performance 25-35 loads. When used in a rifle with good extraction � any rifle except a Thompson Contender � IMR 4320 will deliver high velocity and exceptional accuracy. The same applies to the 25-35AI.
In recent years Alliant Reloder 10X has become the velocity and accuracy champion in the 25-35.
I am talking about bullets of 75- and 100-grains and primarily varmint hunting. The 100-grain bullets do kill deer just as well as when fired from the 250 Savage and the 257 Roberts. There are not many active 25-35 shooters left and few who use the cartridge for varmint hunting.

that picture just scares the HELL out of me and Im very sorry you had to experience such an atrocity and it does happen from time to time as we had a deer hunter sighting in a couple deer rifles back in the 70s and upon firing a round the bolt exitted the reciever from the rear and killed the shooer instantly,Im have not been sure why I do it but I rack my cases in a 50 round loading block and when the block is full of 50 I stand over the block with a lite and check the powder level in each case to see that they all look identical in powder level and then seat bullets,thanks for this post as Ive passed it along to some friends who are toying with the idea of reloading that this might give them somthing to think about,Regards and good shooting in the future...............

An easy experiment is by sizing different hardnesses of cast bullets in a sizer. The more they are sized down, the harder bullet is more difficult, and in some instances requires lube, simply because of the force and friction caused when sizing.

A harder bullet (say 30 BHN), when the load is reduced to the point the bullet just gets out of the barrel with a softer bullet (say 9 BHN), will often stick. This is using unlubed bullets, as lube quality and the amount used does change things.
I have tried this, using (gasp!) reduced loads of TiteGroup in revolvers.

On the other end, you can hit a pure lead bullet with enough pressure that it will stick in the barrel too, possibly causing damage, also due to friction, where a hard bullet or jacketed bullet would be safe.(I haven't done this, but there is enough old info from the past with pure lead used in magnum handguns).

Very hard cast bullets can also not obturate where even a jacketed bullet will obturate, since the core is very soft and the jacket can be moved around, going where its support goes with the pressure. I've miked some at the base to verify this, even though it could be visibly seen.

Two comments about recent posts: Seafire, if IMR didn't mention any warning about jacketed bullets when you spoke to them (and I assume you asked that directly) then I'll retract what I claimed about their descriptive note.

Hawk1, I think the difference in forces required for sizing soft versus hard bullets is due to their hardness alone, not their friction. You are in effect performing a reverse obturation at slow speed, and it stands to reason that a bullet that is more resistant to deformation (harder) would require more force to deform. There are ways to measure friction, but that isn't one of them, IMO.

I would agree Rocky, but adding lube eases the chore, why?

It is then true that sizing a "dry" jacketed bullet with the same equipment is impossible to difficult, gilding metal having a greater shearing strength and being more resistant to deformation.

Friction or resistant to deformation?

Anything is safe when done by someone who knows what he is doing. Nothing is safe when done by someone who knows not what he is doing.

Extending my fears or ignorance across the board is an invalid position for me to take, on any subject. That's the same "logic" anti-gunners use against us.

Well stated!

Why would a double charge be a problem with 'squib loads'? We would hardly be loading 'squib loads' to 'normal' pressures using double based pistol powders, would we? The only time I use reduced loads with pistol powders, they can be trebled before they reach 'normal' pressure for that cartridge, let alone dangerous pressure.

Weighing and funneling the powder into the case then immediately seating the bullet is great - provided one doesn't get distracted and do the weighing and funneling twice!

So why am I on about it? I nearly added my rifle to the list of blow-ups! How? I single loaded one case and got an got it empty! Not exactly an explosive mix but chambering another round behind it because I thought I had not cycle the action would have been disasterous had I been using reduced loads as only the powder in the case stopped the bullet from slipping all the way back into the case and allowing the round to chamber. This was not a reduced load and a double bullet would have blown it for sure!

I did break a few rules; When I had a misfire I extracted the 'dud' cartridge and found it to be a 'fired' case and assumed I had not recycled the gun instead of removing the bolt and looking down the bore! I did however, allow for a hang-fire and I did check for powder spill on extraction. I have never had a bullet dislodge from the case before from just a primer. Not in a rifle anyway.

303, if you leave out a charge it doesn't matter if the charge was a reduced one with pistol powder or a full-charge one with rifle powder. You still have a case with no charge.

Either way, it wasn't the fault of the intended charge, but a reloader error. A reloader error with ANY intended load can be dangerous.

It still comes down to a basic rule: each case should contain one charge of the correct powder in the correct amount.

To address pressures, many of these loads are nearly normal pressure. They produce less gas VOLUME but at near-normal pressures. There are fewer gas molecules available because small charges have fewer to begin with. But before the bullet moves very far, the pressures can still peak to a sizable percentage of maximum. They also drop fast, which is why we get very low muzzle blast.

Referenced in another thread....

an oldie but a goodie...

funny reading threads from back in the day, where campfire members could disagree, but be civil...

its 2023, and I have to admit... 10s of thousands of rounds later.. I still haven't blown up any rifles with Blue Dot
or any other reduced loads, I've experimented with...

guess loading one at a time and seating a bullet is the way to go, don't get distracted, and use your head.

what a concept.

Non of this applies to cast lead bullets lubed with beeswax and hoglard. One of my favorite ice breaker loads is 13 grains of Blue Dot in a 35 Whelen case pushing a 158 SWC so lubed. Chronographed them and found great consistency, low SD velocity spreads and 1450 fps. They make it to 100 yds quickly and it's like a 357 mag. Blue Dot is one of my favorite powders. And "THE LOAD" remains.

Funny post! Did you use Paprika to powder your puzzy? Blue dot loads are not necessarily squib loads and the golden rule I have no matter what the powder in use is carefully check powder level in each case before you seat the bullet. I have had one case destroyed by my loading practice. I used the wrong dipper (too) big for the load in question. Should have measured a charge from it before loading. IMR4227 in a 223 under a 45 gr. hornet bullet. Had to replace a cheap extractor in a Rem 788. Good lesson to learn.

Them fast burn powders will sure 'nuff hurt something, or maybe someone.



Look at the lower right....the target is still weeping....Bluedot hurt it.

The very same can be said of any kind of handloading.

Ridiculous.

First Amendment applies, though.