Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Blue Dot Load Disaster

I am enclosing a link that was sent to me by a friend last night.
That friend, I believe is aware of my enormous fear of "squib loads" in Rifle cartridges.
After reading the following and observing the pictures contained at this linked to site, it should put an end to anyone even considering using NON-POWDER COMPANY RECOMMENDED loads - of any kind!

Link to follow: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/8131029301

Better safe than sorry!
The catastrophic results that can happen when trying to save a few cents or to make a Rifle/cartridge "DO" what it was not intended to do - IS NOT WORTH THE MANIFOLD AND LIFE THREATENING RISKS!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

One might also conclude that having a wife causes guns to fail, VG. It was her distraction that led to the man's decanting two charges into that case.

Nobody ever said that double-charging isn't dangerous. All of us who use such loads are aware of the danger - and take stern measures to avoid it. Double-charging applies to more than Blue Dot loads. Many good target revolvers have been blown apart with double charges of Bullseye - and that IS a recommended powder for .38 Specials. We could say the same for many cartridge/powder combinations.

VG, your crusade against Blue Dot is well known. Your concerns have real merit, and reloaders should take note of them. It is merely your blanket condemnation that is irksome.

Rocky Raab: ANYONE - and that includes YOU - that tries to rationalize away the dangers of using squib loads or using powders in cartridges NOT recommended by the powder manufacturer is simply - ASKING FOR TROUBLE/INJURY!
I have had friends who have injured themselves while handloading!
They are humans - they make mistakes like all humans do - they also felt they were infallible and invincible, BEFORE, their accidents!
I would NOT consider my warning to be a crusade - I consider it to be just what I said it was - squib loads are not worth the risk of injury and finacial loss that they inherently bring with them!
I would not know a Blue Dot flake of powder from Adam or Eve.
I have never loaded any cartridge, ever, with Blue Dot!
I hope the Blue Dot manufacturer does well.
Nope, your rationalizations are NOT convincing to me in the least!
Rocky, look AGAIN - CAREFULLY - at the destruction caused that strong Rifle by the use of "squib loads"!
And look carefully at that piece of the action that was blown apart and bent back to the extreme - towards the shooters face/skull!
I contend, if that small bit of steel holding that long piece of action had failed (along with the rest of the action!), that piece of steel could have went through the humans skull - killing him!
THANK GOD that did not happen!
I am not the type of person that hesitates to state my opinion but I seldom if ever tell folks what to do - in this regard though, I AM telling anyone considering squib loads in a Rifle NOT to do it.
The enclosed pictures are "Exhibit A" in my contention.
DON'T DO IT - IT'S NOT WORTH IT!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hmm..kinda puts into perspective what we are doing. FWIW The Lyman (48th) specifically lists several pistol powders for reduced loads in .223. I do intend on trying some reduced loads with blue dot & also SR4759...I also plan on paying close attention to what I'm doing...as I do every time I'm at the loading bench...I'm also wondering what the result might have been had he FAILED to put a charge in at all...Might there have been enough pop in the primer to lodge one in the barrel??? Might he have been distracted enough not to realize what might have happened??? My take on reduced loads is the same as any other load...you need to pay attention to WTF you're doing at all times.

It wasn't a squib load, my friend. It was an accidental double charge. Those are polar opposite things.

The Lyman manual contains hundreds of tested and recommended loads using flake shotgun powders with cast bullets, in both rifle and handgun cartridges of all shapes and sizes. So the practice is hardly unknown or frowned upon. That's not the powder manufacturer, but Lyman is hardly a source without authority in the reloading field. So we are not rationalizing in the least.

Nor have any proponents urged that the practice be undertaken blithely. Indeed, all of us have repeatedly urged extreme caution, offered ways to exercise it and even said if anyone is the least reluctant to try it, don't.

This topic is clearly the sand spur in your sandal. Looked at objectively, yours is the only strident and fanatic voice. Perhaps that might cause you to step back and consider your position. Or at least wipe the foam from your lips, LOL.

Allow me to say once again, the nugget of your argument is sound. Accidents can indeed happen if mistakes are made. But you take it too far when you suggest that accidents WILL happen, no matter what care is taken to avoid mistakes.

Rocky,

Well thought out, and well said.

Thanks,

Steve

After years of listening to a particular forum member rail about the merits of using pistol powder in rifle handloads...its actually not surprising at all. Yes it can happen in pistol rounds but its much less likely using powders designed specifically for rifles in rifles. I suspect there is a reason bullet/loading data providers don't do this. May be they realize what a huge problem it can be.

All that money the guy saved by using Blue Dot (what other reason could there possibly be to do this) might be enough to buy a case of beer but probably not enough to buy a casket and funeral.

Gathering loading data from forum threads is like playing catch with grenades.

"Rail" is not a word I would use except for those who are against the practice. Those who argue for it have calmly and rationally suggested that for certain purposes, and with all due precautions taken, reduced loads can be useful, practical - and safe.

I have never tried "Reduced" loads before but have to say I'm looking forward to it.

MM, do follow the guidelines set forth by Seafire for Blue Dot loads, or my own observations about using Unique or RedDot.

Weigh every charge. After weighing, funnel the charge into a primed case, then immediately seat the bullet. Do it that way and only that way and you will be fine.

I use an electronic dispenser, so every charge is weighed automatically, but a drum measure (or even dippers) will work fine with a beam scale.

Thanks Rocky...I've got it covered...no worries here.

Should also note the amount of guns (with published loads) blown up with Bullseye, especially handguns.

Of course the initial loads were published, yet they are no longer "published" when the reloader doubles it.

No load is safe with the muzzle pointed at someone and the gun cocked either, just for clarification..

Sound advice there. I was taught that way was THE ONLY way to load rifle cartridges.

RH

RockRaab: NO, it TURNED OUT NOT TO BE A SQUIB LOAD!
BUT - it WAS intended to be a SQUIB LOAD!
It turned out to be a BOMB!
Therein lies the horrific danger of "squib loads" - when HUMANS are trying to make "squib loads" (squib meaning smallish firecracker - among other things "small"!) there then comes right along with that, the ability to "DOUBLE CHARGE" ones "squib loads"!
One of the best rules I follow in my handloading is to NEVER use a load that does not fill the case at least 95% - that way if somehow some extra powder gets into the case do to some human error, and is not detected - then when that round is fired it normally would not be catastrophic like what happened to the 257 Weatherby shooter.
Again RockyRaab - NO amount of rationalization on your part makes "squib loading" any LESS DANGEROUS!
It just doesn't.
Rationalizing MAY make you feel better about what you are doing but that is false security and it does NOT make squib loading any less dangerous - making and using squib loads is dangerous (witness the associated pictures on this thread!)!
Period.
Even IF the Blue Dot squib load dangers could be described as the "burr in my sandal" that would still NOT make the practice of "squib loading" any less dangerous!
My feelings have NOTHING to do with the catastrophic detonation of that Rifle!
NOT ONE BIT less dangerous - irregardless of ANYONE'S feelings!
Again simply witness the catastrophic detonation that destroyed that modern armament, scope and stock!
How much did that one "tiny" human error cost the perpetrator?
New Rifle - new scope - new rings - new bases - shipping Rifle to manufacturer, trip to emergency room, follow-up trips to Doctors?
$1,000.00?
$2,000.00?
$10,000.00?
Think how much it would have cost if he had to have surgery on an eye?
Think how much it would have cost if he had to have surgery on his brain?
Think what it would have cost him if that barrel or a part from that action had struck a human at an adjoining shooting bench?
$100,000.00?
Complete and lasting financial ruination?
I again express my thanks that more physical harm was not done to anyone in this squib load detonation incident!
I think it is ABSOLUTELY IRRESPONSIBLE for anyone to advocate or rationalize squib loading Rifles!
I have seen enough injured and screaming human beings to last 25 lifetimes - it makes me sick to think anyone would risk injuring their face, eyes, head, hands and brain to try to save a few cents on a squib load!
If the powder manufacturers DON'T recommend a load - DON'T USE IT!
Period.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I happen to shoot a lot of squib loads in rifles, some of them suppressed. I must state that none of my squib loads are intended to save money; they all have a specific purpose.
Bullseye and Accurate No. 2 are particular favorite powders of mine for the 7.62 X 39mm and the 308 Winchester. I take care when charging cases to charge one case at a time and seat the bullet immediately.
The important step to remember is the establishment of a load plan. One case charged at a time almost eliminates the possibility of a double charge � there are no guaranties in life.
I started shooting my fathers squib 308 loads when I was 8, riding motorcycles when I was 12, skydiving when I was 16 and flying when I was 18. I may have turned my parent�s hair prematurely grey but establishing a plan and sticking to it helped prevent accidents � it did not eliminate accidents.

I was gonna use blue dot in my .380 acp. sounds dangerous though now.......

just kidding. use it for what its intended is my motto. nothing against those that want to experiment, but know the risks. I heard of a guy using Unique in a .300 WM. he was a rookie using his uncles press, so he just took the casings, scooped them full of "powder" and seated a bullet and away he went to the range. blew the bold straight back, nicking his cheek and scaring the crap out of the guys at the range that day.

I don't see how a reduced Blue Dot load is any more dangerous than any other loading screw up. If we mess something up, such a double charge, then we ought to expect a blown gun.

Most of us using reduced loads take a number of steps to prevent double charges.

I use blue dot in 243 and 223, neither of my loads will allow a double charge without overflowing the case. Any reloading mistakes can be dangerous. I wouldnt blame the powder...

Bottom line for me is...If I wasn't completely comfortable with it I wouldn't do it. I'm not looking to save money, OTOH it is a fringe benefit. About 45 yrs. back (when I first started loading)I managed to pop a primer with a HOT .270 load while shooting a small buck...I thought I had blinded myself in one eye.
It took probably a good hour of sitting there for it to finally stop watering enough for me to get up & find the deer.
Since that time I've become quite a bit more anal in every aspect of reloading. One mistake CAN end up being your last.
Reloading is a pretty safe way to produce TOP SHELF ammo...BUT YOU GOTTA FOLLOW THE RULES & pay attention to WTF you're doing.

I had a load disaster once....