Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ask John Barsness Questions About "1-12 vs. 1-9 Twist in .223's"

My M-70 Stealth has a Wilson 1-9" bbl and will shoot the 75 Amax very well up to 300 yards. I use a stiff load of VV-540, CCI 450 primers and load 30 thou. off. Shoots inside 1.5" at 300 yards.

My best game load is the 65 Sierra GK and 26.7 gr. of VV-540. Very accurate and has performed well on deer/antelope.

The 65 Sierra shoots very well in my LTR 223, and I may try it on a doe this coming season. I've shot it with Varget, but today the 68 gr. Hornady match bullet did so well on top of RL15 that I want to try that powder with the Sierra too.

John,
My .223 WSSM with a 1:9 twist stabilizes 75gr A-Maxes very well. 5/8" groups @ 1oo yards. My .22-250AI neede a 1:8. As you mentioned before, speed affects stabilization also. That being said I can see where a .223 Remington may not stabilize an A-Max, but might stabilize a shorter 75gr slug. I am considering building a 1:8 .223 WSSM as the 1:9 may be marginal for a 80gr A-Max. Ross Setfriends .22x284 had deformation issues with the rate of twist he used. That's why I think as speed increases rate can decrease a bit to avoid bullet defromation or destruction. Ross's 22x284 might have been fine with a 1:9 or even a 1:10 twist.
John Boy

My M700P (1:9) does great with the 69-gn Sierra, and seems to stabilize the 75 A-Max just fine, though I have not yet found "the load" with that bullet.

26" barrel...

You should try some N140, it really works with the 75 grain Bergers for me.

I believe the 204 was developed by the 222 Remington Magnum. I could be wrong, but it would have been the 22-204. Actually, it would have been the 20-222.

Dan360,

The 204 Ruger is the same length as the 222 magnum, but it has less body taper and a longer body and has a 30 degree shoulder in place of the 222 magnum's 23 degree shoulder. This gives the 22-204 about 5% more capacity over the 222 magnum (when measured below the neck) which equates to about 100 fps. In contrast the 22-204 has about 8.5% more capacity than the 223 which equates to an advantage of about 200 fps (at the same pressure). 200 fps makes a surprising amount of difference in trajectory and retained energy. The 22-204 is ideally suited to pushing the new 60 grain NBT (based on my experience with the similar capacity 5.6x50 magnum).

Note also that brass for the 222 magnum might not be available for too much longer. 22-204 case can be easily formed from 204 Ruger cases which will be available for a long time to come, and it is available from a wide range of manufacturers. Yes 222 magnum cases can be formed from 204 Ruger cases, but this is a little harder, and why not take advantage of the larger capacity 22-204? Here's to hoping that Ruger introduces the 22-204 as a factory chambering. Maybe they will base it on a longer case (like the 5.6x50 magnum) and call it a 224 Ruger. That would give it about 300 fps over the 223, enticing more shooters to upgrade.

Having said all that, the 223 will not be displaced from the AR-15 format because of OAL limitations. But at longer cartridge would do well in bolt actions.

You mean the 22-204 gets 3700+ with a 50-grain bullet? That's .22-250 velocity.

8.5% extra case capacity means about a 2.1% increase in velocity at the same pressure, which is a long way from 200 fps, assuming the 3500 fps or so the .222 Magnum is capable of with a 50.

Hi John,

You raise some interesting points about plastic tip bullets. Thanks.

However the improved BC of plastic tip bullets actually reduces the need for a faster twist barrel because flight time it reduced. So plastic tip bullets should be causing a trend to slower twist barrels, at least when compared to appropriate twists rates for hollow point bullets of otherwise similar design.

There are other considerations such sectional density, lead free bullets, and boat tail designs, but I believe it is the trend to longer bullets that has had the most influence on twist rate. The trend to longer bullets itself is driven by three forces, long range target shooting, increased deer hunting with a 223, and improved long range performance for military/tactical purposes.

The improved concentricity and structural strength of modern bullets allows the lighter and shorter bullets to be shot reasonably accurately though an 8� or 9� twist barrel at medium range. Many hunters still do most of their shooting between 100 and 200 yards with 50 grain bullets, so given that accuracy between 100 and 200 yards is typically worse with 50 grain bullets in faster twist barrels, so a wholesale move to fast twist barrels would be unwelcome by many.

I would love to read an article comparing the accuracy of a Remington Model 700 with 9� twist with a Remington 12� twist of equal length with 50 grain bullets. This might have already been done, I just don�t know where.

Sako and Tikka rifles are even offered with a choice of 8� or 12� twists in otherwise identical models! This is quite clever because the don't disenfranchise any customers. If they do eventually settle on one twist rate maybe they will adopt a 10" twist rate.

Matt

Mule Deer,

My measurements are based on external dimensions. So the actual internal capacity increase might be closer to 10%. That might still leave the velocity advantage at less than 100 fps based on your method. However your method might not hold true across all calibers, bullet weights, and powders.

After looking at a few handloading manuals and web sites it appears the 223 and 222 mag produce around 3400 and 3450 fps with a 50 grain bullet from a 24 inch barrel with maximum loads (using Winchester 748 among others). There are less data available for the 22-204 and 5.6x50 magnum but a couple of reputable sources for the 5.6x50 place it around 3600 fps from a 24 inch barrel. Given that the 22-204 has only about 1% (2% based on external dimensions) less capacity than the 5.6x50 then I estimate the 22-204 would produce close to 3600 fps. Interestingly, Winchester 748 produces only around 3500 fps in the 5.6x50 while Hodgdon Benchmark produces 3650 fps. Benchmark gives the highest velocities with all bullet weights in the 5.6x50 so it would likely be a good choice for the 22-204. Unfortunately I don't have any data for VihtaVuori powders for the larger cases.

For comparison, the 22-250 produces around 3800 fps with a 50 grain bullet from a 24 inch barrel. It is very hungry for powder though, it uses about 35% more. Something I really like about the 222 family of cases is that they put less pressure on a bolt face, and so a smaller and lighter action can be used than for the 22-250. For this reason I'm a big fan of Sako and Cooper Firearms. I just wish Cooper would introduce a model 51 repeater sooner rather than later!

In summary, I'd say the 22-204 has only 100 fps advantage over the 223 when using W 748, but when using H Benchmark the advantage stretches out to almost 200 fps. However W 748 does burn at a lower temperature which extends barrel life. So if barrel life is a big consideration then the 223 has an advantage there.

Remchester,

I have talked to the makers of plastic-tipped bullets, and they have all assured me that the plastic tip does "count" as part of the bullet length when figuring twist rates.

The 1/4 formula (any increase in powder capacity result in an increase of 1/4 that percentage in potential muzzle velocity) works in just about all cartridges, except at real extremes. For instance, when comparing the .22 Hornet to the .220 Swift, the ratio is about 1 to 3.5. But for cartridges as similar as the .222, .223, .222 Magnum and .22/.204 it certainly applies.

It is also not powder specific. It assumes that the top-velocity powder is used in each case, whether that is the same powder for the various or not. Benchmark also produces top velocities in the .223.

Generally people who load wildcats exceed this because they unknowingly load to higher pressures. Comparing one cartridge loaded to 55,000 psi to another loaded to 62,000 psi is not valid.

I think that they need to start making 223 Bolt actions in 1/7 or 1/8 (1/7.7) twist. There's a big difference in the way that a 77 or 80gr bullet flies at medium ranges (600yds) vs the 69gr bullet that a 1/9 will stabilize.
Maybe for varmint rifles 1/9 is a decent comprimise but I'd still bet if serious varminters had serious bolt guns with the quicker twist that would shoot the heavier bullets they'd use them more than the lighter ones. Or even better how about a 22-250 barrelled to shoot 77-90's? I think Seyfried did one.............................DJ

My 9" twist LTR has done pretty well with the 75 grain VLD Bergers I bought on a whim, but I haven't stretched them out very far. My range limits out at 300 yards.

Mule Deer,

Maybe the addition of a plastic tip does produce a small destablizing effect, but maybe the reduction in flight time more than offsets this. I wish John had discussed this.

It is still intriguing that Benchmark only equals the velocities obtained with W-748 in the 223, whereas with the 5.6x50 Benchmark gives a significant increase over W-748. One source, which uses the same pressure measuring technique across all loads, lists the data below.

223 W-748 3400
223 H-BENCHMARK 3525
5.6X50 W-748 3500
5.6X50 H-BENCHMARK 3675

It will be interesting to see how factory velocities compare if and when it is standardized.

I think it is important to understand that the concept of an optimal twist rate for each bullet at a given muzzle velocity still holds true. It's just that the goal posts have moved a little.

It is also clear that bullets can now be spun faster without deformation thanks to improved construction. However this does not mean that a bullet should be spun as fast a possible, because modern bullets, as good as they are, are still not perfectly balanced. Therefore for best accuracy a bullet should be spun only "fast enough" to keep it stable within its useful trajectory range.

For this reason I believe there is a future for both 12" and 9" and 7" twist barrels for bullet in the 40-55 and 60-70 and 75-80 weight ranges respectively.

Personally I don't think the trajectory of the 223 with bullets heavier than 60 grains is acceptable beyond 300 yards (and even that is a stretch) for general purpose varminting where the shooter doesn't have time to either use a rangefinder or take multiple shots at the same target.

Marketing departments are making the most of the Tactical hype. Once it dies down we'll all be shooting 55 grain bullets again, and there will be a lot of unwanted fast twist barrels and Tactical rifles (with their gargantuan scopes) on the used market.

"John" didn't discuss stability vs. flight-time with plastic-tipped bullets because he has never heard of such a problem, or encountered it in the field. John (who is me) has talked to the major bullet manufacturers about this and is extremely puzzled about what your point really is.

In fact "John" is growing more and more puzzled the more you post, because many of the things you have suggested (such as 40-grain .224 bullets being worthless beyond 200 yards) do not match his experience, in fact are so different from his experience that he wonders where you got yours.

The columns I write here are not intended to be all-inclusive essays discussing every nit-picky possibility of a subject. For one thing, I don't get paid enough to do that. For another, the members of the Campfire get to ask questions about the column, one of the good/bad things about writing for the Internet.

I've got an Internet buddy in Colorado who whacks P-dogs with a .223 regularly at over 500 yards. I think his longest is about 7xx yards. He prefers a 6mm for those shots, but takes what he gets, I suppose. He shoots everything from 60 to 40 gr. bullets and has assuredly made shots at WAY over 200 yards with the light-weight pill. In view of Remchester's post, I asked him on another forum about it, in fact.

I'm interested in the slow-twist, low-mass approach to a .223 as I have a couple with 12-twist bores and I'm bound to use 40-55 grain stuff. As for long range, about four or so years ago a shooter on the Army rifle team scored a possible at 1000 yards, 7 twist (IIRC) and a 80 gr. bullet that was just barely supersonic, but apparently barely was good enough. The guy who told this was or had been on the team, a Lt. Col. in the Army whose name I can't remember...a Korean-American who folks here might know. He was head of the Army Marksmanship Training unit at Ft. Benning at the time.

I've shot tons of 40gr B-Tips out of a custom .221FB rifle. At max velocity, not quite what a .223 can produce, the .221 & 40 grainers were quite accurate and killed reliably at distances out to 350yds or so.

However, I'm considering the 52gr A-Max in my new .223 when it arrives.

One other thing that may or may not be pertinent to high-volume shooters, my bud said he THOUGHT faster twists were harder on bores. Sounds reasonable, I suppose. He goes thru a barrel about every year or so.

Is the article posted somewhere on the 24hr site? I'd like to read it.

I'm shooting 53gr TSX bullets in my 1-12 Remington 223 and the group starts to open up past 200 yards. Any other 50gr bullet (especially BT or VMax) all plop in the same ragged hole at 200.

I'm wondering if the longer TSX bullets are just on the verge of being too long for the 1-12 twist...