Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What is causing the SHORTAGE???

My own personal definition is that anything more than about a two-year supply at your normal rate of consumption is hoarding.

Suddenly starting to buy all you can find is hoarding.

Watching for the shipment to arrive and buying it all is hoarding no matter HOW much you have or don't have on hand.

If you place the line somewhere else, fine. If you don't place a line and feel that anything you can get ahold of is fair, then you're a hoarder in my book.

Rocky
I suspect the hoarder's attitude is somewhat like the poacher's attitude; ie, he figures as long as he is the only one that poaches (or hoards) there is no problem.

Royce

Outside of this topic, we're pretty much on the same page. I knew when I got back from my walk that you would have responded......

"If you place the line somewhere else, fine. If you don't place a line and feel that anything you can get a hold of is fair, then you're a hoarder in my book". How many rifles do you own Rocky? Handguns? Bullets? Primers? I'll bet that most members here would likely say, by your definition of such in the above quote, that you're a hoarder. We all could probably get away with 3 long guns and a 2 or 3 handguns........really. I would assume that you have more than that of each...I certainly do, but I wouldn't consider that hoarding, be it me or you.

Since the word and description of hoarding goes back hundreds of years, it would make sense that hoarding didn't start and won't end with this firearms/components issue. I fully expect that many non-hoarders, as you likely would like to label yourself, simply can't afford to hoard (as you put it). I look at hoarding as stockpiling......so I suppose it's semantics that may divide us rather than what I believe you're saying, ie, someone attempting to keep others from having something, whether intended or not, for their own good. I don't believe that people are intentionally or purposefully doing that, whether it is construed that way or not. I know you didn't say that exactly, but it could easily inferred since the result is the same.

"Suddenly starting to buy all you can find is hoarding"....your words exactly, not mine. So, you walk into your favorite gun shop and see one box of Fed. 215M's on the shelf, which was the intention of your trip. You ask if there's more in the warehouse, but the clerk shakes his head. You purchase that last, solitary, lonesome, much sought after, rare remaining box of Fed. 215M primers, which is all that you could find. By your definition, you are now hoarding. ".......buy all you can find is hoarding"....end quote.

I see pallets of primers, powder, bullets arrive at my gun shop and have yet to buy an entire pallet, whether decades ago or now. So, ".....buying it all....."......a stretch, at best.

Everybody looks at things differently and everybody has different limits on what they can and can't purchase. We all wonder about our rights, future and our security in different ways and most of us act accordingly. Whether real or imagined concerns, it only matters to us as individuals, as well it should. We also define these situations differently and call them different names. Well within our right to do so, ala, hoarding/stockpiling. BTW - I have amassed a large amount of most reloading components, but did so in years past, many years past as a few members here have personally seen.

Our current political situation is uncertain, as far as what O's administration will attempt to do with regards to our rights as firearm owners. This isn't new, the Brady Bill isn't something we've all forgotten about..is it? The writing was on the wall for several years about how this election was going to go........wasn't it?

People, everyone one of us, are responsible for our own actions......wouldn't you agree? Likewise, we are also just as responsible for our own "inactions"....yes? What we are seeing is more of a "OH CHIT, I need more of this or that....." goin' on because of the latter, not the former. Years and years to have seen the writing on the wall, but.............. So maybe we should call those people, "Asleep At The Wheelers" and place the "blame" on them, if you still feel the need to place "blame". Humans from the full spectrum acting like humans do, no more and no less.

I don't feel sorry for the "Octomom" in the least. She's an adult and should have been more responsible. I do feel sorry for her children however. But feeling sorry for her children doesn't mitigate her stupidity nor her lack of foresight, which is far more the point of my post.

So rape is like having sex....both legal or both illegal? The 'ole apples to oranges thing comes to mind.

Last time I looked, poaching was illegal and having a comfortable stash of reloading components was........well......prudent.

Not sure that members here, including myself, that have a comfortable amount of reloading components, would like to be associated in any way with being called a poacher.

So please don't........that was waaaay off base and uncalled for.

magnumb
The kind of person I was referring to was the person like the guy a local gunshop told me about- He brags about having 70,000 primers on hand, yet shows up every week when the shipment shows up to buy more.- I wasn't referring to the person that keeps a reasonable amount of components on hand.

Royce

I ordered some ammo from Midway tonight. I could get most of the .270 stuff I wanted, virtually any factory load for my .300 Win Mag, but they were out and back ordered on just about all .30-06 and all of their limited selection of .300 Savage. Does anybody make an AR chambered for .300 Savage I didn't know about?

Over the past two weeks we have received over 450lbs of powder and 80M primers (normally a six week supply, gone in 6 days), however, a lot of ordered items were not available, mostly small rifle primers. Today, we got a good supply of 7 1/2. Varget, 748, H335 are frequently zeroed as well.

My opinion is that supplies are easing. We order weekly and the "zeros" are becoming less. I suspect that we may be approaching a saturation level of panic buying and I believe most supplies will resume a modicum of normalcy as we continue into the year. IF Eric Holder keeps his mouth shut.

That's pretty nice of you my socialist friend to determine what is a "reasonable" amount to have on hand.

This issue has two componenets expressed by those on this thread - intent and a time frame:

1. To have stored away a large supply over time - that's called an inventory and has little impact on folks,
2. To have accumulated a large supply in fear, and likely over a relatively short time frame - has an impact on folks, hoarding.

The difference is the intention and time in which it was done.

Let's examine the definition of hoard shall we:

Merriam-Webster: a supply or fund stored up and hidden away.

Dictionary.com: a supply or accumulation that is hidden away or carefully guarded for preservation, future use, etc.

The fact that some are taking offense to the use of the word seems interesting.

The difference, and negative conotation of hoarding, revolves around intent and time to accumulate. If you're intent is to accumulate as much of something without regard for others, over a short period of time --> HOARDING. If you intent is to have a healthy supply, as defined by you, and is done over a longer period of time w/o impact to others --> Inventory.

For the record: I do believe folks should be limited to the amount of components they can buy over a given time period - you can bet your butt if I owned the store they would. I've traveled more than a few times 120 mile round trip to find primers because we have a few folks - the same folks - locally that buy every friggin primer that comes off the truck for weeks on end.

To me, this is more of a statement about self centeredness than anything else - I'm getting mine and I don't give a shiite what the impact is on anyone else. That mind set is the biggest issue with the world and humankind since the dawn of time.

Have fun hoarding - just remember when it's you on the short end of the hoarding game - don't bitch..............

I thank bwinters for expressing my sentiments so well.

Magnumb, perhaps you missed or chose to ignore the words "my personal definition." That's not socialism. Socialism is when somebody like you tells somebody else how to define things and how to think and act. I was only describing who I think is a hoarder.

And since you seem to have a need to know, I keep about 2,000 of each size primer on hand. If I go below that, I buy 1,000 of that kind or size. I do have a lot of powder types, because reloading articles require testing a dozen or so for each cartridge. But usually only one pound of each, to be replaced as needed.

Guns? I own fewer than 30 guns, total; only one in each chambering, with exception of .22s and a pair of .357s.

Except for powder then, I own LESS of everything than any of the examples you've given. Probably less than you own, as well. Which means that I'm setting standards for hoarding that are more generous than I myself follow.

To those who think hoarding is merely "keeping an inventory" I make you this toast: May you always be ten minutes behind someone who thinks just like you.

Just a thought....it might behoove you to call ahead to that gun shop and ask if what you're specifically looking to buy is in, rather than driving that 120 miles and wasting precious gas $ and your time, while also putting a couple of hours or so of wear and tear on your rig. Any gun shop that is worth their salt will gladly accommodate such a request, especially since I would expect that you would know these shop people quite well, as most avid reloading members would know their local gun shop people quite well. Seems that a 3 minute phone call would be a more prudent and less burdensome way for you to go. It's obvious that the inconvenience of the trip doesn't set well with you.......can't blame ya.

If you do decide to call ahead or to have them call you when certain components do arrive (which is what I've done for many, many years)........and they simply won't or can't do that for you, if you have and can use a computer, go on-line and order from a site that lists that your specific item is definitely in stock. It's delivered to your door, saves you all that obvious angst during your 60 mile trip home, likely saves much more in gas than you would spend in shipping from an internet purchase........you get your item conveniently ('course, even internet vendors have backorders these days, but with a little effort, one can often find a site which has their particular item in stock).

Those 120 miles, all the gas used plus wear and tear, the 2 hours of time on the road when you could have been doin' something else and resulting higher blood pressure when you find that you've gone through all that to no avail is hardly worth buying just a 100 count box of primers and seems hardly worth the trip. 'Cuz, if we take you at what I believe was your post's intent, that's likely all that you would buy each trip even if you could buy more. Otherwise, it would seem that for you to purchase more than that would result in you being a "hoarder", by your definition, coupled with the lack of readily available components. If your definition of hoarding isn't limited to a 100 count box of primers for each trip, where would you have it start? 200, 300, 400.........a case (5,000)? And finally.......who nominated you, or anyone else here, to be the determiner of such definitions and/or quantities?

I don't think that NathanL nor myself have found it either necessary to hoard as of late nor are lacking for much in the way of reloading components at this time........can't know for sure about NathanL, but I'd be surprised if this current situation caught him with his pants down as it has obviously caught so many others. I also don't expect that he or I will ever be on the short end of the hoarding game stick as it seems you'd like us to experience. Therefore, likely no need for us or many others to be bitching as some are now doing.

Seems like the most bitching is comin' from a lot of people who profess to be out of this or that.....makes sense, I suppose. Don't have it and want it.....simple enough. Not to see this situation comin' a looooong ways back, makes less sense.

To me, this lack of foresight "is the biggest issue with the world and humankind since the dawn of time". If we don't learn from the past (Brady Bill, etc.), we are either not very bright or we are just always gonna be another one of the "Asleep Behind The Wheelers".

Have fun sleepin', but don't bitch if and when you finally wake up and find yourself on the "short-end".

Oh yeah.....you have already.

Rocky, that was spoken like a true gentleman. Keeping your cool is an art form I'm trying to learn. That was a good lesson.

Terry

Before you attach the use of the word "socialism" to me, be more sure of your target, Rocky. In your haste and zeal to respond to my last post so quickly, you've missed the target, yet once again.

You've been the would-be "definer" of the word "hoarder" since day one, along with trying to shame people into thinking and acting in a way that you deem reasonable and/or responsible..........not I.

"I was only describing who I think is a hoarder"............so what? What good did you expect to come from that? More importantly........who cares?

What about that last box of 215M's on the shelf Rocky? Remember, you offered up all those definitions? Did you go home with it? Thought so. And the rest of us are no less human......that IS the point.

So NOW we're not allowed to think that hoarding and "keeping an inventory" are any different, but more importantly, because YOU just said so. "Socialism is when somebody like you tells somebody else how to define things and how to think and act"......exactly your quote Rocky. That's EXACTLY what you just did.

Attempting to show oneself as a consistent traveler of the "high road" and actually being on it are two very different things. Your last post was an attempt at a tight rope act between the two........a failed attempt

There are several ways to address your post. I could be a little put out by your assumptions on my lack of foresight but I have nothing to prove to you. The basis of your argument is flawed, as such your resort to a redefinition of the terms and conditions through the use of assumptions, is classic. Nice try at re-defining the terms of the dicussion. It doesn't change what I wrote.............

Then you "progress" to name calling. Very nice - again.

Signed: Lord of the Asleep at the Wheelers.

It was NatanL who used the term socialism. I wrongly attributed it to magnumb; for which I apologize. But as Magnumb then agrees with NathanL, perhaps it wasn't so much of an error.

Since you again seem to have a need to know about me, the last time I was in a shop with primers on the shelf (and they just happened to be Federal 215s, BTW) I left them there - for somebody who might really need them.

I would hope with my last breath that hoarders - even those who save face by defining themselves as "inventory maintainers" - do indeed feel shame. Whether that stems from my words or not is immaterial. Hoarding anything in times of shortage, be it reloading components or food or cigarettes or anything else, has throughout history been roundly condemned as an act of selfishness and greed. Hoarders have been stoned, shot and tossed out of life rafts for their greed and for the harm they cause others. So it isn't just MY definition that applies. Hoarding is disgraceful, and those who practice it deserve contempt; no matter how they "gussy up" the wording.

So you're saying you used foresight? From your initial posts content, you seem quite upset at NOW not being able to purchase items that you obviously lack. Rather than blame yourself for your either flawed foresight or lack thereof, you want to blame all other people not in your current situation. I say ALL, because it is evident that you have determined that these people are "hoarders", as you have called me. This goes back to an earlier post where I said that we're EACH responsible for our own actions/inactions and their results. Blaming others is easy, taking responsibility for our own mistakes.........not so much. Perhaps it's out of fashion these days.

BTW - "progress to name calling"? Grasping at straws, are we?

Outside of my general term made up specifically for this type of "lacking components" situation, I, as nicely as possible, tried to use "Asleep Behind The Wheelers" as opposed to the many other options readily and obviously available to me.

So your calling me and those that have no components issues as you and others seem to have, "self-centered". Then you go on to say, "Have fun hoarding", implying that I and others are "hoarders", which is obviously not an endearing term when you use it.

So as to name calling.......compare that which you accuse me of, to both the above which you thought quite appropriate to direct towards me. Lots of sunlight comin' through your glass house today...?

You may very well be the "Lord" of such, I don't know, but you quite voluntarily assigned yourself that title, not I.

Why can't I buy as many as I can afford? Who is tell me what is "reasonable"?

He mentioned 70,000 primers. How much do you shoot?

I shoot 200 rounds every other weekend in a steel match. I shoot double that in practice. That's one gun. Now throw in regular target practice and pigs and I'm guessing I rougly shoot between 1,000 and 1,500 rounds of non rimfire ammunition a month.

At that rate 70,000 primers would last me less than 4 years. Are you willing to bet that they won't get harder to come by or cheaper?

I can name a WHOLE LOT of stuff that I have bought in the past that I should have bought a 100x more of because they don't make them anymore.

Supplies/ammunition will never get any cheaper than they are right now even with the panic buying.

Basically I don't give a damn what you term "reasonable" and I'm pretty sure most people don't either. Next thing you know you'll be telling me what's "reasonable" for me to own gun wise. I mean I must be hoarding firearms because I own more than what you consider "reasonable". Maybe I make more money than you consider "reasonable".

I think I'll go out today and buy another 50,000 primers.

BTW I own enough primers and powders that I keep them in 3 different locations for safety/insurance reasons. I haven't bought a single pound of powder or primer in the last 6 months like a lot of people who came to the party lately.

If you didn't see it coming take the blinders off and prepare.

Some of you sound like your on Pelosi's side. I'm sure you'd be all for the 1 handgun a month bill, or the bill where you can only buy so much ammunition a month........

In 5 or 10 years your going to wish you bought all you could as well.

I'm glad my family "hoarded" and bought a bunch of full autos prior to 1986 as well. I'm sure we have more than is "reasonable" and paid pennies on the dollar for what they are worth nowdays.

Get while the getting is good.

Apology accepted, with as much enthusiasm as the apology was given. "Perhaps is wasn't so much of an error"...........now that's sincerity.

I travel to MT. an average of 3.5 trips a year for varminting purposes (sometimes 3 trips, sometimes 4). I shoot an avg. of 1,300 rounds per trip........totaling approx. 4,550 rounds yearly, NOT including range time, pre and post. This also doesn't include trips when my son or daughter go as well, if so, DOUBLE that..........likely well over 10,000 rounds per year.

My AR's use primers to go bang, not sure what others do. So, when I walk into my gun shop and walk out with 2 cases (10,000) of primers under my arm, and with the misconceptions that these type of threads help give birth to and for those ignorant as to my specific uses/lifestyle, me and mine are then labeled "hoarders". Now, double those primer #'s again as my buddy goes quite often as well and we, as buddies do, offer to pick up components for one another, if not for several others shooters, as well. Powder, bullets and brass (to a certain extent), as well.

So, what have we got? We have a shooter buying components that will last one year at most, making just one trip to the gun shop if possible, perhaps helping a buddy out along the way. Seems pretty innocent, not "self-centered" nor unreasonable. That's unless there's someone here that would attempt to deny me or mine that right and/or opportunity. Good luck..........

Is that hoarding? As I said before....who gets to draw that line in the sand? Certainly no member here has that right, for no reason other than there's no one member here with more standing than the next, nor should there be. Some obviously think that they should be afforded such a position and others happily trot along behind, but I can't imagine assuming either position.

So the harm comes when that self assignment occurs. Whether it should or should not occur, others words and ideals are accepted readily by others 'cuz it happens to fit their own current situation and they don't have to expend much energy in the process. Dangerous and harmful stuff........that.

FWIW - I've bought 4,000 primers in the last year, all 210M's and 215M's. I purchased several cases of 205's (all same lot#) several years ago and don't expect having to do so again for awhile. I also bought several bulk tubs of H335 (again, all same lot#) during that same time frame, along with a bunch of brass and bullets............all prior to this unfortunate situation occurring. Much cheaper and much more readily available.......all of it. Foresight, luck, the way I roll......whatever, it worked for me.

So is how I choose to approach my passion, "hoarding"? And if so, is it disgraceful and contemptuous as YOU claim it to be Rocky?

And yes, it IS your definition that applies because since this whole components issue started many moons ago, you are inevitably the first one to the table with your hoarding comments...........enough already. Especially when your assumptions, while the avid varminter is walkin' out the door with a case of 205's under his arm, is merely lookin' to go shoot some PDogs for a few days with his daughter or son. How would you know any different unless you asked or had specific knowledge of each and every would-be, by your definition, "hoarder", leaving every gun shop? Simple, you can't, no matter how you "gussy-up" self-righteous.

And neither can anyone else.

***If you didn't need that last pack on the shelf of 215M's, why in the world would you even consider taking them? I wouldn't have either, but I don't expect some type of reaffirmation that I'm a good person for not doing so. I saw an old '67 'Cuda like I once owned on a lot the other day too. Could have bought it, but I didn't really need or want it, so I didn't. Heck, I do that several times each day, like I suppose millions of other people do. What was your point? ***

I'll pass on both arguments - we've left reasoned dialogue.

You fellas have great day.

More differences of opinions/definitions than an argument. As I said earlier, we all look at things differently, along with a bit of the "glass 1/2 full, 1/2 empty thing" going on here.

You have a great day as well.