|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869 |
cmg, agree with your thinking. Haven't heard anyone on this thread claim yet that a 400 grain .416" bullet traveling at 2400 fps is insufficient to kill a buff, time after time. BTW, that's the 100 year old load that made the Rigby's reputation and also happens to be the factory ballistics for the 416 Ruger. So, I'll call the question - how dead does a dead buff need to be before the 'we need more speed in the 416s' aficionados think they've hit the magic number? About 2400 fps with a 400 grain .416" or .423" bullet is just fine in my book.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry
Deus vult!
Rhodesians all now
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
Ray: The 416 Ruger CAN'T HANDLE a 400gr TSX. The latest issue of American Hunter had a good writeup on it. The bullet is too long and it severely lowers case capacity.
Squeeze: the 416 Weatherby IS a Rigby with a belt. You can use Wby data to load the 416 to the same velocities. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869 |
Jorge, have you confirmed this finding with this load combination yourself?
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry
Deus vult!
Rhodesians all now
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
I have not, but others have and the data is published: 416 Rigby load data I quit at 2550 fps with zero pressure problems. When the Rigby is loaded to the gills to approximate 416 Weatherby velocities there are no pressure problems. The caveat being Weatherbys have a 26" barrel for their testng while Rigbys do it with 24" or less. My Rigby has a 24" barrel. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817 |
Ray: The 416 Ruger CAN'T HANDLE a 400gr TSX. The latest issue of American Hunter had a good writeup on it. The bullet is too long and it severely lowers case capacity.
Squeeze: the 416 Weatherby IS a Rigby with a belt. You can use Wby data to load the 416 to the same velocities. jorge ...........Well if that is the case, then I wonder why there aren`t more loads published for the 416 Rigby that use the the higher load potentials which nearly equals the 416 Wby? Liability reasons? Rifle reasons? Other problems? Is there fine print which says the Rigby can be loaded as a 416 Wby? I see nothing in Hodgdon, Nosler, or Lyman which indicates that. Hodgdon, Nosler and Lyman all use the lower pressured 42-43k psi loading data. There is no 416 Rigby data in my Sierra manual, so Sierra is out. I don`t have a Hornady edition. Does Hornady have any stronger loads? I`m just curious as to why. If a cartridge has more potential which are safe loadings, then why aren`t more sources showing them?
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
See my above post to a link. The Weatherby case IS a 416 case with a belt. They have the exact case capacity. I suspect the reason for the load data is a litigious one, with the possibility that older rifles could not handle modern loadings(50-60k psi). There have also been numerous articles published on same. Maybe Muledeer can chime in and vector you to the specific data. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869 |
jorge, I didn't make my question clear. I believe you're implying that the Ruger lacks the case capacity to load the 400 grain TSX to a MV of 2400 within the magazine's OALL constraints. My experience based on loading the 404 Ruger wildcat with the 400 grain .423" bullets is that this is not correct. I have not yet done the firing tests, but know from my own experience that the case has enough volume to use at least 84 grains of IMR 4350, which will result in 2400 fps. I don't disagree that the Rigby and Wby variants will yield higher MVs, but to what end?
Last edited by Wildcatter264; 03/27/09.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry
Deus vult!
Rhodesians all now
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,788 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,788 Likes: 1 |
Wildcatter,
ending with a good rethorical. As you said above, .416 or .423 400gr @ 2400 fps made the light heavys famous.
The Ruger cases give us that with ease, in a standart length action. Case closed. Goal achieved. I wish you well for load developement on the .404 Ruger with the TSX. Do keep us posted.
Mozambique is just a few short month away for you to reproof 400gr. @2400 fps of TSX on Buff. They will suffice, of course.
All the good to Jorge and his Rigby Modern, with 400gr. @ 2550 fps from a 24" barrel that would, with a decent bullet, of course also suffice.
We are back in the loony bin after the question: "Will animals notice the difference of 150 fps?"
Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
Hey guys, I never said that I load to those velocities as a norm. I load mine to 2400-2450 tops for hunting. What I tried to point out to you is that according to the article in the NRA magazine, you CANNOT achieve 2400 fps with the 400gr TSX ONLY because the bullet's length takes up too much case capacity NOT magazine constraints. *I* didn't say it the NRA magazine did.
But folks that have used these cartridges like Layne Simpson for instance definitively say that there is a difference between how a buffalo reacts to a 400gr bullet at 2350 and one at 2600 plus. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Squeeze: Jorg is right about the 416 Weatherby and Rigby comparison. You may know this,but for a long time, a guy could not get 416 Rigby brass. Jack O,Connor's solution for his Rigby was to turn the belts off 460 Weatherby brass and form them to 416 Rigby.The two cases are that close,and Weatherby used the basic Rigby case in designing the 378 and the 460; the 416,of course,came later.IIRC O'Connor cranked the Rigby case right up there to about 2500 with the 400 gr bullet.
I've never owned a Rigby,but do know that some of Bill Steigers clients loaded the Rigby chambered in Ruger rifles up to pretty high velocity (2700 or so)with 335 Bitterroots,and took the combo's to Africa for Cape buffalo; as the stories are told,the buff got dumped on their noses pretty quick.
Here and there I have read accounts of fellows very safely taking the Rigby case up over the factory standard 2350 with 400 gr bullet with no ill effects. It's a pretty big case.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,788 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,788 Likes: 1 |
But folks that have used these cartridges like Layne Simpson for instance definitively say that there is a difference between how a buffalo reacts to a 400gr bullet at 2350 and one at 2600 plus. Jorge, its is folks like Layne Simpsons job to say thing like this - keeps the industry going. Also, we are talking a difference of 250 + fps (I only mentioned 150 fps) now. L.S. most definitly should have further mentioned that not only the animal but also the shooter notices a difference between 400 gr.@2350 and 2600 + . Such rifle would either have to be a hog to carry or a mule to shoot. Academic discussion aside, I would stick to the 400 @2400 as being ample and shootable. As a guide (not in Africa, granted) I prefer such cartridges for my hunters. Tend to be shot better. I akknowledge your discussion of strictly case /cartridge potential, which wildcatter and myself took into the field so to speak. Sorry for that. All good from my side.
Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,488
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,488 |
It's funny that all the folks who think a 416 Rigby built on a standard M-98 are the epitome of light/powerful rifles - while virtually every gunbuilder ( including Rigby) will tell them why it shouldn't be done - think that the new 416 Ruger - that is designed to fit in a standard M-98 and gives identical performance - will never be as good. Why do I suspect the reason being has to do with ambient temperature the ctgs will be used at? I have vary little doubt the temperature you and I see here in Alaska are just a tad different than what the boys in Africa use these ctgs in. My vote is for the bigger case capacity, it just makes a whole lot more sense in a hot climate. Where heat is as much of a factor as the big snot-ties that abound.
Thus saith thr lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeh from the lord. Jeremiah 17:5 KJV
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817 |
Squeeze: Jorg is right about the 416 Weatherby and Rigby comparison. You may know this,but for a long time, a guy could not get 416 Rigby brass. Jack O,Connor's solution for his Rigby was to turn the belts off 460 Weatherby brass and form them to 416 Rigby.The two cases are that close,and Weatherby used the basic Rigby case in designing the 378 and the 460; the 416,of course,came later.IIRC O'Connor cranked the Rigby case right up there to about 2500 with the 400 gr bullet.
I've never owned a Rigby,but do know that some of Bill Steigers clients loaded the Rigby chambered in Ruger rifles up to pretty high velocity (2700 or so)with 335 Bitterroots,and took the combo's to Africa for Cape buffalo; as the stories are told,the buff got dumped on their noses pretty quick.
Here and there I have read accounts of fellows very safely taking the Rigby case up over the factory standard 2350 with 400 gr bullet with no ill effects. It's a pretty big case. ............Thanks for that info!.....I was aware of the Rigby case size, but was not aware of its full load potential. Nothing in my manuals showing the greater loads. The 416 Ruger cannot equal its Rigby and Weatherby counterparts. But after all is said and done, a 400 grainer moving from the muzzle at 2350 to 2400 fps from the 20" barreled, 40.5" OAL Ruger Alaskan, makes for a very sweet, fast handling, easier carrying and very potent rig, suitable for anything on the planet and all at a very good price too.
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Squeeze: Like the 375,I'm sure the 416 Ruger will be a great cartridge.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,946 Likes: 25
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,946 Likes: 25 |
It is interesting to speculate how -if Holland and Rigby had introduced the 375 & 416 Ruger rounds in the early 1900's - and Ruger was now introducing a long, tapered belted case that required a magnum length action, plus an even larger 416, would they achieve the same reception as the ultra-mags? And would the folks now bashing the Ruger rounds be defending them due to their being "classics"?
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869 |
It is interesting to speculate how -if Holland and Rigby had introduced the 375 & 416 Ruger rounds in the early 1900's - and Ruger was now introducing a long, tapered belted case that required a magnum length action, plus an even larger 416, would they achieve the same reception as the ultra-mags? And would the folks now bashing the Ruger rounds be defending them due to their being "classics"? Phil, suspect you're probably right - "The more things change, the more they stay the same" esp in rifle loony world. Every 'new' cartridge development takes us forward to the past.  However, just found the 416 Ruger dies as a new product on the Redding site, getting ready to order. With a .420" expander plug in the neck die it should be perfect to load the 404 Ruger. See, a 'new' wildcat that takes us forward, back to the old world of the 404s! 
Last edited by Wildcatter264; 03/28/09.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry
Deus vult!
Rhodesians all now
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,946 Likes: 25
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,946 Likes: 25 |
Someone will no doubt trim the rim down and neck it up to 425 and make a "new" and "improved" 425WR
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,869 |
Except for the rebated rim, I think that's what the 404 will be - .423 caliber in the Ruger case. But you're right it won't be 'loony perfect' - maybe that rebated rim idea is beginning to sound ... interesting?!   Just kidding, too far out even for me. Think we should let a sleeping WR lie.
Last edited by Wildcatter264; 03/28/09.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry
Deus vult!
Rhodesians all now
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,704
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,704 |
Ray: The 416 Ruger CAN'T HANDLE a 400gr TSX. The latest issue of American Hunter had a good writeup on it. The bullet is too long and it severely lowers case capacity.
jorge Can you be even more specific? A buddy of mine takes American Hunter, and offered to FAX the article to me. Except he can't find the article in either March or April editions... So...Where is it, and who wrote it? Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
If it please the court; Ooops. It's the latest SCI magazine, March-April 2009. pp. 86-87. "If loaded to the 416 Ruger factory ammo length the base of this bullet (400gr TSX) is 1/3" below the case shoulder, and the 400 TSX is so long as to be unusable in my opinion." He goes on to say that in a longer action such as one from Empire rifles it would not be a problem, but the Ruger's 3.4" mag length would be unworkable. John R. Sundra. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
102 members (79S, 6mmbrfan, 35, 35WhelenNut, 673, 264mag, 16 invisible),
962
guests, and
927
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,977
Posts18,519,890
Members74,020
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
