Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Game Warden Kills 76 Year Old Man

ringworm asks.....>How come we have a different set of rules for land and wildlife than we do for homes and other crimes.<


The way it was explained to me is that wildlife belongs to all the people of the state, not the person upon whose land it is presently standing. They give game wardens wide latitude to enter upon people's property because their job is to protect the the wildlife belonging to the people of the state, where ever it is standing at a given time.

It chaps a lot of asses that GWs have that discretion to go where they want but I dont see it changing. I had a GW come into a camp once while I was away and open my camper door and look in. I almost lost my dog because the idiot didnt get the door latched back properly and the dog got out.

Like any line of work there are some damn fine people doing it and some total jackasses.

On another occasion I was talking to a GW at a road block where they were trying to snag some moose poachers. He gave me a pointer on a good place to go for mule deer. I tried it. Saw no other hunters and shot a big muley buck.

I think the demarcation line has been fairly well drawn as to this debate.

I hope the original poster keeps us updated.

do you think GM's should be able to violate the US constitution
or do you think that if a turkey wanders onto my property all of the sudden my protection against unreasonable search and siezure are waived?

GW's don't need a warrant to come onto land. Try to keep up, Ringworm.

I'm with Ringworm on the Constitutional issues. I also understand the emotions involved with the death of an old man hunting. I will take issue with the ludicrous idea that "small" crimes should never escalate into a deadly force situation. If that were the case, none would be enforcable.

Cop...Sir, I'm stopping you for running that red light.

Mr.Smith...Officer I've got a gun, and I'll kill you if you write me a ticket.

Cop...Nevermind.

i assure you i am aware of what the "law" says.
what i am attempting to bring to light is the fact that ITS FKING WRONG!!!

do you own land?
do you have any idea what ownership means?
how abot the concept of reasonable expectation of privacy?
Why do GM have the right to trespass anytime, day or night with no reasonable suspicion whatsoever?

ringworm, do you understand that it's STATE law that grants this to game wardens? If you don't like it, work on changing it! The fact that NC allows wardens to enter the land is their choice.. unless you live there, your thoughts on the issue just don't matter. If you do live there, contact your legislature.

But if you live in a state, you'd better abide by state laws. Don't like it? Change it or move to a state that has better laws. Nebraska doesn't allow wardens to enter private land withouot probably cause, or (despite what I was told by one warden) does it allow wardens to enter a dwelling without a search warrant. Cars, barns, etc. though are all fair game.

i assure you i am aware of what the "law" says.
what i am attempting to bring to light is the fact that ITS FKING WRONG!!!
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OH! And what have you affirmatively done in regards changing it as opposed to merely biching about it on an internet forum?

Biching is easy!

Because there clientele are usually not the type to push the matter, and the mundane nature of the laws enforced don't tend to get any attention. I guess if a warden ever stumbles across somebodys wife in the freezer, instead of an undersized possom, we'll find out.

In a nut shell !!!!

I'm coming to this discussion late, it took me a long time to read all the way through it.

As Calhoun mentioned earlier, if people disagree with the laws as they are written then they should be taking steps to approach the legislators to request changes.

Unless something has slipped my mind not one poster who supported the "old man" said they were planning to do this. So much for their commitment!

I have run into GW's who lacked people skills and admittedly there seems to be more of them lately. The result for me and my hunting partners is, however, to scrupulously follow the regulations. Talking back to anyone having enforcement powers is asking for trouble.

The guys age has nothing to do with it. If he couldn't control his temper he shouldn't have been allowed out of the house with a gun in his hands.

And before anyone gets too critical of me I'll point out my age is a few years over 70. In spite of this I do not support the guy who got shot, if the facts as given are correct.

JMO - Jim

"As long as we give law enforcement officers the unquestioned right to use deadly force in all situations and absolve them of all responsibility as long as they articulate a perceived threat, then they have in effect a license to kill."

Obviously you know that's not true. You're posting on emotion.
The threat you mention doesn't work all the time, maybe more so 20 yrs ago but not in today's day and age of cell pics and cams. Ask Nevers and Budzyn. Or maybe the BART cop when his day comes.

This entire situation is tragic. An old fella is dead and not coming back. Some have mentioned to pull back and meet him at the house. Who's to say he wouldn't be even more fierce in his stance there? I'd wager he'd be even less inclined to have his this encounter at home.

++++++++++++++++++++

I'm trying to get a handle on this "imminent danger to the public" and the man was "killed over baiting turkeys". Neither are relevant nor factual. The old man, if the GW's recitation of facts are proven true, threatened to take the life of an LEO with the use of a firearm. Imminent danger to the public doesn't have a rat's ass to do with anything. Further, his threat and, perhaps, an overt action in furtherance of his threat to kill an LEO was what this was about and attempting to segue this into a death merely over a turkey is nonsensical, at best.

NEW TWIST.........See if you think of the warden now.

A witness to the shooting was a 10 year old grandson.
This is what is beening said by a friend of a family member who is there pastor...
The boy was going to see what the yelling was about,he was about 50 yards away and told the SBI.The game warden was pointing a gun at grandpaw tring to get him to come down the tree,he was tring to climb down and he kept saying,ok,ok clam down I'm trying..the warden kept saying drop your gun,old man kept saying I can't,I can't,Went he got on the ground he shot.Walk up and looked at him and started talk on a radio...
The old man never droped the gun like the warden ask...it was tied to his wrist with a shoe string!!!

IMO:the warden just wanted to show who was boss and took it to the limit.The same warden was in trouble 2 years ago for pull a old man out of the truck.VIA...the window because he was spot lighting,he and his wife we driven on there land looking for there dog.Hit the man a few times with a flash light and put the cuffs on his wife.

Cops have changed,when I was growing up I was around them all the time they ate at my mom and dad resturant.I would go fishing every year on opening day of trout season with them.They were like family.I have no record of any kind other than for the Game Warden.But the cops today are little kids that was picked on in school and now have the POWER.They are not trying to make a change,they are on an ego trip.Here in NC jobs are being lost every day,money is tight and the new Hwy Cop in his eary 20 wrote 72 seat belt tickets at 125.00 each the two days on the job...that caused a hard ship with some people.The law is Black and white,but there is a gray area in witch we live.

I for one can not side with the Warden and people that know the old man want.They have been death threats againest him and his family to the point that they may go in to hiding.In the county this happened the people are very clanish and lots of redneck type.And if they knew the man are not,they are looking at it as a way to kill a cop.Bad deal all the way around...

If that is factual, that jack azz needs to go become friends with Bubba in the NC State prison. I would tend to believe a 10 year old kid talking to a preacher. Les

If what you posted is factual, then that warden deserves to fry.

Our game wardens have expanded search & seizure so that they can look for game in obscure places.. like an extra pheasant in your glove box, a fish in your waders, etc.

Over the years this has allowed officers to abuse the 4th amendment.

In California F&G now also protect non-game species and streams, habitat,etc.

They have evolved into a super cop agency that is used to spank large companies and ranchers over stupid laws. A rancher can not legally remove willows from a stream anymore or face F&G citation.

Too bad. They really have a lot of great officers.

If the boy articulated this factual scenario to both SBI and the preacher,with articulated precision to both versions, then the scales are tilting in the other direction at this juncture.

The boy was standing there in full view when the GW shot,huh?

Whooo boy, A lot of opinions without many facts disclosed on the case one way or the other. There's only assumptions. This is no better than a lynch mob, except it is impossible to "physically" lynch someone over the web.

Here's my 2 cents for exactly what it's worth:

1) A law that is not enforced is not a law. It is a wish. IF the evidence shows that it was poaching, the officer had every right to be there and to issue a citation on the spot (Whether it was prudent is entirely different). And as to prior knowledge of the poaching... I would assume that there must have been some probably cause because he ended up at the right spot at the time that the deceased was there. (Not sure whether to call the guy Victim, Poacher, or Hunter at this point)

2) I believe in property rights, up to the point that activity happening on one piece of property should not infringe on the adjacent property owners. If you're baiting and poaching game on the 20 acres adjacent to mine, you're just as good as stealing from me and the other property owners. The law allows for a game warden to enter the property and I am OK with that. He's protecting the public's interest in the game.

3) The shooting wasn't over turkey poaching. Something else happened and we don't know "what" until the investigation is done. Don't flame the rhetoric by saying that the guy was killed over a turkey.

4) When approached by a LEO or GW, it's best to open the action you have on any gun in your hand and control your muzzle. It's not a law, it's just good common sense.

5) Let's leave the age of the landowner out of it. It doesn't matter if he was 16 or 76 does it? By all accounts, the guy can climb up and down a rope ladder so we know he wasn't feeble.

The only thing we can infer from the accounts is that it seems common sense was lacking by one or both parties. Until we know more, I'm calling this "unsolved".

Our game wardens have expanded search & seizure so that they can look for game in obscure places.. like an extra pheasant in your glove box, a fish in your waders, etc.

Over the years this has allowed officers to abuse the 4th amendment.

In California F&G now also protect non-game species and streams, habitat,etc.

They have evolved into a super cop agency that is used to spank large companies and ranchers over stupid laws. A rancher can not legally remove willows from a stream anymore or face F&G citation.

Too bad. They really have a lot of great officers.

Motive, opportunity, & intent =violation.

Intent being the big one.

Lots of times that is only discerned in court by a judge after the citation was written!