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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,071
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,071 |
Yep, but where we were once a thousand times better off in America than anywhere else in the world, we are now only somewhat better off here than anywhere else. I like it the old way better.
Yep. We were once a country where the citizens survived off their own fortitude and ingenuity. They never asked for govt help nor were they encumbered by the weight of it's restrictions or taxation. Not sure how I would fare if I lived during those times but what irritates me is it's no longer my choice to make.
Last edited by rrroae; 05/03/09.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Makes me wonder how many think we're truly a free country and people when almost everything we do is regulated by govt and are we really any different from our socialist European counterparts?
What do you think freedom even is? can you define it? So much of the rest of the world lives under overt tyranny - the kind where being poor means pretty much staying poor; the kind where being uneducated means you pretty much stay uneducated; and so forth. I wouldn't want to raise my child anywhere else than here. Keep watching,... http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/04/01/us-unemployment-2/The U.S. private sector cut a record 742,000 jobs in March, higher than analysts� expectations and a leap from the upwardly revised 706,000 jobs cut in February, according to a report from ADP Employer Services.I get it Bristoe - people are losing their jobs. I know dozens of people (with families) who've lost their jobs and yet managed to find somewhere else to work in short order. It's much more than just an enormous loss of jobs. It's the beginning of a gross downward adjustment in the American standard of living. Like I said,...keep watching.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
No, we do not live in a free country. Freedom died when the South lost the Civil War. The Federal government can do anything it wants because they have the power. They proved that when they killed a million Americans in the process of denying self determination to half of the country. The IRS and Federal Reserve Board are obvious examples of the Federal government doing what it wants in defiance of the Constitution and there's nothing that we can do about it. If you don't pay your income taxes, you go to jail. If the IRS acuses you, you are guilty until proven innocent. Acusation equals conviction.
Everything that we do is regulated by the government. George Orwell's Big Brother is looking over our shoulder all the time. If we step out of line they punish us.
I used to think that the really sad thing is that most other countries are worse because we're supposed to have constitutional protections of our individual rights and they don't. But only the very rich or very poor have the resources to fight the government. The largest economic segment of the population is the middle class and we don't have the money to fight the government and we don't have access to free legal representation that the poor do. Residents of countries like Mexico have more personal freedom than we do because their government is relatively inneffective and far away so they have more personal liberty than we do. Their government intrudes into their lives less than it does into ours.
What we have had for a long time is prosperity and there has been enough surplus wealth that the rich can allow some of it to be distributed to the middle class and poor. Even the poorest American lives a luxurious life style compared to 3/4 of the world's population. People with full stomachs do not rebel. We have traded our freedom for economic security. To parphrase Ben Franklin, people who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither.
I love America because it is my home and I seved in Viet Nam to fight for my country. But I fear my government.
THERE IT IS!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66 |
This never was 'a free country', as we have always had some sort of National, State and local governments operating at times, against the basic rights and freedoms we all THINK we have.
Time to wake up, and smell the reality. Bemoaning that which you never had is childish. You are mistaken. A free country is one which enacts and enforces no laws that violate individual rights. We pretty much had that (not counting the slavery issue) until approximately the First World War. Nothing's perfect in this world, but we came more than close enough.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
Thinking a few Indians might argue that fact also.
Idiot^2
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66 |
Thinking a few Indians might argue that fact also.
Idiot^2 Yep, not perfect, but close enough. We thought of Indians and Negros as not quite like us, and somewhat like animals. That was wrong, but European Americans were a product of their age. I'm not going to hold them to modern standards on issues such at that.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,148 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,148 Likes: 2 |
Slavery was on its way out anyway. So let me see if I get your positions right. You feel that conducting aggressive interrogation of three people possibly eyeballs deep into plots to kill mass amounts of American citizens to try and gain information to prevent more Americans deaths should be treated as a crime against humanity and that was approved by teams of lawyers trained in the subtlest nuances of law. But at the same time you feel that whole treating 1000's people as property would "work it's way out in time"? Do you have any idea how f'ed up that is? I seriously don't understand how people can think "states rights" included owning people as property and both side of my families were slave owners. Now, off to visit my public library
Last edited by Pugs; 05/03/09.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66 |
So let me see if I get your positions right.
You feel that conducting aggressive interrogation of three people possibly eyeballs deep into plots to kill mass amounts of American citizens to try and gain information to prevent more Americans deaths should be treated as a crime against humanity and that was approved by teams of lawyers trained in the subtlest nuances of law. But at the same time you feel that whole treating 1000's people as property would "work it's way out in time"?
Do you have any idea how f'ed up that is? I seriously don't understand how people can think "states rights" included owning people as property and both side of my families were slave owners. The early Americans were a product of their age and thus did not think of Indians and Negros as quite human. That mentality was gradually fading from the world, and was on its last legs in the United States, when the Civil War began. It comes down to the fact that we had a choice at that time in history between allowing slavery to fade by a natural process that was already well under way, or we could turn the Founding principles on their head to do it, sending us on a collision course for tyranny. I would have preferred the first way. You may fault me for this if you like.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 66
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 66 |
as long as the majority of people expect gov't to spoon feed them and wipe their noses because they are incapable or too lazy to fend for themselves then things will just get worse. they have only taken those freedoms that we have allowed them to. it would take a mass awakening of the general public to put a stop to the gradual erosion of our freedoms and an even louder outcry by exercising the only rights we have left to even have a chance of reversing or restoring those rights we have already lost.
we could make a start by voting ALL democrats AND republicans out of office, wiping the slate clean and starting with an entirely new batch of representatives in Washington. the status quo is no longer capable of honestly and diligently representing their constituents period!
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,985 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,985 Likes: 2 |
MontanaMarine:
You probably read my rant above about the lack of freedom in this country. There's another perspective that I would like to share and it kind of relates to what you wrote. Over the years, I've wandered some about the country, usually driving from one place to another. In progress, I often pick up hitch hikers to give me company on a long drive.
A couple of times I have picked up people who described themselves as being "on the road". They're what most people would call bums. One guy explained the techniques of dumpster diving to me and another explained how to arrive in a new town and quickly discover where the free meals are to be found and how to discover where to spend the night for free.
I've often thought about those guys and how free they are. They have no posessions, no one to tell them what to do or when to do it. They can go where they want when they want and have no one to answer to. They don't worry about government regulations because they have nothing and do nothing that can be regulated.
I've often dreamed that I might like to be one of those guys. I could give up all the material wealth, George Carlin's "stuff", leave my home and go wandering about free as a bird. I don't think I would miss the "stuff" and I certainly would not miss conforming to some schedule or doing what others think I should do.
But there are important things that I would miss. I would miss my family. They make life worth living and they make putting up with the opression of the government bearable. Those guys have nothing but most important of all they have no one, no family, no friends, nobody to share life's joys and sorrows with. They are alone. I couldn't bear that. So I endure.
KC
Semper Fi
Wind in my hair, Sun on my face, I gazed at the wide open spaces, And I was at home.
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,196
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,196 |
in these times slaves are judged by the luxury of thier bonds, nothing else.
We are all slaves.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,368 Likes: 17
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,368 Likes: 17 |
Over the past week I've had a fella over to our place to discuss putting in a 3 acre pond in a small field below the house. Prior to even talking to the fella, I had to make sure and contact DEP to see if they would 'ALLOw' me the opportunity to spend my own money on something my wife and I might enjoy.
It got me thinking,...how free are we really?
If I buy land, I must ask the govt permission to build a house.
I can buy a gun, as long as the govt checks me out first.
I can hunt my own land, only after getting a license provided by the govt.
After I pay off my home, it is still not truly mine as I'm forced to pay a yearly rent to the govt for life.
...I could go on and on.
Makes me wonder how many think we're truly a free country and people when almost everything we do is regulated by govt and are we really any different from our socialist European counterparts? And here in Colorado, thanks to the freedom loving Republicans in 2000, the Colorado legislature passed a law criminalizing building a house without a "permit".......
Oh, and what sort of fish should I stock my pond with?
Check with the USFWS first, some exotics/non-native species are illegal  Of course, I don't entirely disagree when there is a bona fide risk to native critters. Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,368 Likes: 17
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,368 Likes: 17 |
"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose". You're thinking like me Jacques!........ Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,999
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,999 |
It got me thinking,...how free are we really?
Makes me wonder how many think we're truly a free country and people when almost everything we do is regulated by govt and are we really any different from our socialist European counterparts?
Oh, and what sort of fish should I stock my pond with?
We ain't seen nothin' yet. A few years of Obammaism and we will have forgotten that there ever was a word called "free." O, be sure to check with all the local and federal law guys before you put any fish at all in your own pond.
The Mayans had it right. If you�re going to predict the future, it�s best to aim far beyond your life expectancy, lest you wind up red-faced in a bunker overstocked with Spam and ammo.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,084 Likes: 66 |
But there are important things that I would miss. I would miss my family. They make life worth living and they make putting up with the opression of the government bearable. Those guys have nothing but most important of all they have no one, no family, no friends, nobody to share life's joys and sorrows with. They are alone. I couldn't bear that. So I endure.
KC
Semper Fi
Not all of them are alone. Lots of them live in colonies, of sorts, or family units.
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,048
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,048 |
If these kinds of conversations are going to come into their fruition we'll all end up conceding a couple of undeniable facts. Freedom comes from within not without and as a civilization we really aren't all so civilized, are we.
We seem to work our way backwards more often than not.
Good thing this old world is still turning. Means we still got time to figure it out.
BAN THE RAINBOW FLAG!
PERVERTS OFFEND ME!
"When is penguin season, daddy? I wanna go kill a penguin!"
---- 4 yr old Archerhuntress
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