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50-95 reload data #3013199 05/04/09
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Buck2 Offline OP
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Does any have any reloading data on the 50-95? I am thinking about getting one of the Cimarron 1876s.

Where can I find good load data on old cartridges like this?

Buck,


300 BP

Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Buck2] #3013869 05/04/09
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Ranch13 Offline
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maybe this will work better than the other one.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,89.0.html

Last edited by Ranch13; 05/04/09.

the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Buck2] #3017516 05/06/09
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Buck2 Offline OP
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Thanks for the reply. That helped a lot.

Buck,

Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Buck2] #4753220 12/28/10
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jonnajulee Offline
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Not much help but not a very common cal and gun so what the hey.... I do have three 45-75s in the 1876. I baby them. The 1876 design has its limitations for pressures... conservative loading is the way to go.

I have NO idea about Chaparral bore specs, twist, etc. If they kept to original (and that's a big if!) then the 50-95 was considered an "Express" type cartridge. Which means a lighter weight but faster bullet. I'd for sure consider the lighter bullet. IIRC Mike V. as per his excellent book on leverguns, found that bullet weights in the 300-320 gr. range worked best in the 50-95 he shot. Again, may depend on the twist in the Chaparral?

Trailboss is a really good low velocity/cast bullet type powder for high expansion ratio pistol cartridges like the 44-40, 38-40, 45 LC, 38 Spc for Cowboy action shooting. Powders like 5744 are much better suited to the big straight-walled rifle cartridges.

You really don't need load data for blackpowder cartridges if loaded with REAL blackpowder. Just because the 50-95 has the "95" number in its designation, it means little as far as the best BP load in your brass with your bullet. Determine the best bullet seating depth for working in your action. Then fill the case up with something like 1.5 Fg or 2 Fg black to the base of the bullet. You should be able to cut some kind of card wad (milk carton, cereal box, or something paper based and dense) with a sharpened 1/2 inch pipe so the wad fits snugly (just a friction fit) into the case. By adding the wad (somewhere between .020 and .075" thick) that should give a little compression to the powder. LIGHTLY crimp the bullet. Try to use a BP type soft lube for the bullet. Bore butter or other muzzleloader lube will work in a pinch... just finger apply it to the bullet. A mix of beeswax and veg oil or Crisco will work. Powders like Pyrodex will work BUT most of the substitutes will yield higher pressures... not needed in that cartridge, in that gun.... certainly not needed for deer. Accuracy is everything.

Also, slug the bore and size the bullet to groove diameter or maybe .001" larger than groove and use a soft alloy for the BP. I don't know what hardness your wheelweights are??? There is no standard hardness for them as far as I know. If they have a BHN hardness of about 8-9 then should work fine. If your alloy is much harder then mix with pure lead to soften a bit. Clean the bore often.


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Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Buck2] #4906064 02/05/11
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I would check that information out real close! I don't believe the action on that model is weak compared to the 1895 45/70 or the .444 Marlin.


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Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Tonk] #4906231 02/05/11
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jim62 Offline
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Originally Posted by Tonk
I would check that information out real close! I don't believe the action on that model is weak compared to the 1895 45/70 or the .444 Marlin.


Unless the word "don't" is a typo above, you are dead wrong.

The 1876 Winchester is a WEAK toggle link locking action just like the 1860 Henry, 1866 and 1873 Winchesters.

It's not NEARLY as strong as an 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin.


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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Buck2] #12959879 07/01/18
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Don't wish to start a fight, but I'm going to respond to this thread that I sorta 'stumbled' across. Despite it being an older thread, it deserves to have this information added to dispel the 'WEAK' toggle link MYTH, that seems to have endured for 140 years, as the 'proof of strength' never received the same publicity as the myth......but then, what's new with the media, in that regards. As is often the case, someone 'reads' an article, then repeats it, until it becomes accepted as fact. What happens when the article is wrong to begin with? Too late, to undue the damage, the truth becomes known, but...….here's a shot of truth....for those willing to embrace it!

I'm going to copy and paste a portion of the excellent research by William Hockett detailing the actual results of testing on the so called 'weak' toggle link action, but for the sake of some brevity, a bit of condensed history on the MYTH of the weak toggle link action. After lab testing proved the toggle-link was not weak, some research was done into the so-called 'failures' of broken toggle links. In virtually every case the 'failure' was not the result of firing any ammunition, but the result of the toggle link being abused...….such as trying to force ammunition, that was loaded beyond the maximum overall length, or dirty actions, that users had tried to force into operation. Tests proved that when locked into place, the toggle-link action had no operational weakness. But the damage was done by the publicity of writers who had absolutely no knowledge of what they were talking about, and published second hand (heresay) stories.....in other words, the toggle link action had been 'Borked' by a press, trying to find fault with one of the 'captains of industry'. Once the toggle link was locked into it's 'loaded' position, it was a position of maximum strength, it's only 'weakness' was when it was open and operating...….as ALL actions are. Here are the FACTS about the testing in Winchesters laboratories, as documented and published after the publicity damning them. One should also add, that the newer Uberti reproductions of the 1876 WCF rifles, have an even better engineered and heat treated toggle link action, that makes it even stronger then the original Winchesters. I shoot a 450 gr. Barnes Original JSP with 31 grains of IMR 4198, and have fired several hundred rounds, now the bullets can't be found, but I still shoot 450 gr. cast lead, with 28.8 gr. of 4198, with no ill effect. The longer I use it, the smoother the action has become.....it's a beauty.

FACTS: The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 1876 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage.5
The big Centennial model was known for its excellent accuracy and is reputed to have been the most finely made of all the early Winchester lever action rifles.

Now it should be noted, that each of the "6 more trials" stipulated above, did NOT consist of a 'one and done', but were a series of tests involving scores of firings. I dare anyone to try putting a cartridge holding 203 grains of black powder in it, then place 1,750 grains of lead over it on their 'strong' actions, and come up with a result of "works well"!! I'm not saying it can't be done on some actions, but......I don't want to be in the same room with ya.....just send me a note and pictures.

Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: NorgeX] #14215661 10/20/19
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BigRedSA Offline
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NorgeX thanks for the information. Very good information. I have a Cimarron 1876 centennial in 50-95 Winchester and was looking to use Barnes 450g (I have 2 boxes) with IMR 4198. Do you use a filler with the 31g load ? And I found some load data that shows a starting charge of 35.8g of IMR 4198 in a Uberti 1876 50-95 and a max charge of 40.2g of IMR 4198 and was wondering if you or anybody used those loads in their 1876 rifles. They seem hot to me but they say they are safe in the rifles.

Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Buck2] #14215869 10/20/19
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This a zombie thread from 2009. The troll posted last year and hasn’t been back, a typical hit-and-run. Can we believe what he posted? Don’t know, but since it contradicts 140 years of belief I would want to see the sources cited before I decided that an M1776 could be loaded to astronomical pressures. Oh, wait, we have no idea what those pressures might have been, do we? Does “safe” mean the rifles didn’t blow up? Nineteenth century promotional “science”? No thanks, I’d not risk my rifle based on ancient anecdotal evidence. But it’s your firearm, load it as hot as you want.


.

Last edited by DoubleRadius; 10/20/19. Reason: Typo
Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: Buck2] #14216258 10/20/19
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I’m not looking to hot rod the rifle but I heard that IMR 4198 can be used as a replacement for black powder by reducing the BP load by 40%, 45-70 would be 28g of IMR 4198. So IF that’s true then the 50-95 should be 38g of IMR 4198. I’m not even sure if I want to load that much. I was more interested in his load of 31g of IMR 4198 and if he used a filler. I’m not looking to push the rifle and I was wondering if he/y’all have used his load data or the other I mentioned. Yes I do love using BP but having a smokeless option would be nice.

Bravo

Re: 50-95 reload data [Re: BigRedSA] #14239587 10/29/19
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I just got back from the rifle range with my Cimarron 1876 50-95 loaded up with 35.8g of IMR 4198 and Barnes 450g original fp bullets ( as I seen in the guns and ammo magazine article buy Ken Kempa) the load performed very well. I only used it out to 50 yards but I have a couple 5 shot groups that measure just over 1”. My eyes ain’t what they used to be but I’m not complaining about the groups. I took the rifle apart and see no issues with the rifle using this load as everything internally was still extremely tight. I’ll be loading up more of these very soon and I’ll give the 300g Barnes a try also and see what they do.


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