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OP
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I know there are a lot of fans of the Partition out here, and I've used them to great success. But I've been working up some loads for testing and have never tried an A-Frame in any of my guns. Specifically, I'm debating whether to play with the 280 grain A-Frame in my .358 Norma, but can't seem to justify it on ballistics alone when compared with the higher muzzle velocity and way better BC of a 250 Partition. In general, do you gain anything with the A-Frame in terms of terminal performance? I have a pretty good feeling the 250 Partition will give me complete penetration from most angles on elk, so I'm not sure I'll be able to take advantage of whatever additional penetration I might get with the 280 A-Frame. Most of my guns have shot Partitions very well, but I haven't heard many folks exclaim the accuracy they get from A-Frames. Does anybody get better accuracy out of A-Frames compared to Partitions? This is primarily for elk, but there's a fair chance some mule deer might get introduced to this rig. Does anyone believe the flatter nose of an A-Frame will initiate expansion a little better than a Partition(which seem to do pretty good on that end in my experience). Anything else I didn't think of? I'd appreciate any thoughts ya'll have.
"For some unfortunates, poisoned by city sidewalks ... the horn of the hunter never winds at all" Robert Ruark, The Horn of the Hunter
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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I will chime in and say the A-frame is one of the easier super premium bullets to get to shoot well. Terminal performance is superb...like the Partition but with more weight retention.It is, without a doubt on my top 2 list of bullets for large game, accuracy and performance wise.. Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Let me first say that Im a Partition fan. I have found that the A-frames shot similar to Partitions in my rifles, which is to say "good" Concerning deer and elk I would use whichever shoots best and never look back. KC
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
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The Aframe is, I think,simiar in performane to the old Bitterroot,which I've been using a long time,and the reason I've only shot Aframes but not yet used them on game,cause I have lots of Bitterroots.In my 270's the 130 Aframe is accurate and follows the same trajectory path to 400 yards as the Nosler Partition,as far as I've shot them.
This is anecdotal, but a friend who posts on here makes a habit of using different 130-270 bullets on each trip to Africa.He has told me the Aframe is excellent,a quick killer and would be his choice if he could only have one bullet in the 270.He has used them on stuff up to zebra in size.
If,as,and when my B'roots are gone,the Partition and Aframe are the two expanding bullets I'd use for any of my hunting in the future.
Last edited by BobinNH; 05/21/09.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Tracker
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Hey Ex, You and I have had a few conversations about bullets and such already, but thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here anyways.
To answer one of your questions, yes, I've had a rifle, a M70 Classic in .338 Win. that never did like partitions, but shot the A-Frames very well. Killed my Brown Bear with that rifle and bullet. On the other hand, many of my rifles have shot both types of bullets equally well. I've never had a problem getting A-Frames to shoot accurately, but I can't say that about other bullets, including Partitions. It will probably just depend on what your rifle likes.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that will have much bad to say about A-Frames or Partitions. Both are excellent bullets. My opinion is that for elk and deer, you can count on great performance from each bullet at about any angle, especially in your rifle. From a ballistic standpoint, you're right that the lighter bullet will give you some advantage, but probably not enough to worry about under field conditions. Therefore, I'd choose whichever one shot the most accurately. If you're getting acceptable accuracy with both bullets, then I'd use the cheaper of the two unless you have a desire to use one bullet over the other just for experience sake.
Now, if you were going on a hunt of a lifetime, say for Brown Bear, Lion, Cape Buffalo, etc., then I personally would load the A-Frames since I have a greater amount of confidence in them than I do the Partitions. However, that is just my personal feeling and I doubt I'd ever run into any issues if I were to choose the Partition. Bottom line is that you can't lose either way.
Test
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A-Frames don't necessarily penetrate deeper than Partitions, even though they retain more weight. (At least in smaller calibers. Many of the bigger Partitions are designed to retain around 85-90% of their weight. But I don't know if 250-grain .35's aare designed that way today.)
A lot depends on velocity. A-Frames are actually softer than Partitions, despite the front core being bonded. They're made with super copper and, I believe, pure lead as well. Consequently at higher impact velocities they open up wider--and the rear core (which isn't bonded to the jacket) tends to shift forward, expanding the rear end as well. In this case the extra diameter tends to limit penetration.
A Partition is made with harder jacket and core alloys, with the exception of the front core, which is pretty soft. Because the front end isn't bonded, it tends to open up quickly (and violently) but then the jacket curls back over the rear of the bullet. This creates a smaller frontal area than with the A-Frame.
The rear end has a harder alloy and, in many cases, slightly thicker sidewalls of a tougher gilding-metal alloy. Thus the rear end doesn't usually expand as it does on an A-Frame--or at least not as easily.
The end result is that penetration is usually similar with thw two bullets, though much depends on impact velocity.
In the instance you're asking about, you're not going to get much more than 2600 fps out of the 280 A-Frame. Or at least that's what I get out them in my own .358 Norma. This isn't really high velocity, so the bullets won't expand as much as they would if going faster.
In my own rifle the 250 Partition outshoots the 280 A-Frame by a noticeable margin, but that doesn't mean it will in all rifles. In a .35-caliber rifle accuracy would also tend to involve the rifling twist. Some still have 1-16 twists and might not stabilize the 280 well. I believe that's the case with my own rifle. But newer 35's tend to have tighter twists of 1-14 or even 1-12 and will shoot any bullet weight quite accurately.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Tracker
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Last edited by STA; 05/21/09.
randy..
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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John, I have noticed that the velocties listed in Swift's reloading manual for the A-Frame seems somewhat slower across the board(for the most part) than that which is listed for Partitions?
Could that be because of the softer jacket that Swift uses for the A-frame, making the bullets 'stick' in the bore somewhat-thus raising pressures?
Thanks
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand." James Elroy Flecker
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Campfire Tracker
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John, thanks for the 2 boxs of 280gr A-frame that you sold me
randy..
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Wowsa, a 280 out of a 358 STA with 86 of H4831 @ 2856 fps or something like that...
For quite some time I used the 250's and H4831 in my 340 for about the same kind of speed and if I recall right I was running 85 grains.
I have no knowledge and or clue (which is totally obvious) but that seems like an awfully stout load for a 280? Doesn't it...?
Thx Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Exbiologist: I use Nosler Partitions in several of my Big Game Hunting Rifles and have never been disappointed, nor ever had any inkling of a reason to even try anything else. This use began in 1961 - or nearly half a century ago. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
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Campfire Tracker
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Dober, stout load and a safe load. No flat primers easy bolt lift and the 8mm mag brass is on its 5th reload and not lost one case yet. The STA is a 1:14 twist and my 225gr TSX load is 91gr of RL19 @3100fps its shoot very very good :GRIN: and max load for the 225gr TSX is 93gr of RL19 @3200+fps but the bolt was hard to lift when shooting on a 90 der day in july... So will not go any higher than 91gr plus I think 3100fps will get the job done on a elk or moose.....
randy..
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Randy, I bet both of those loads would be great on elk or moose!
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand." James Elroy Flecker
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Campfire Tracker
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Tim, It maybe a tad over kill....grins... but what the he11... To tell you the truth if I was going on a elk or moose hunt one of my Kimbers would get the nod....
randy..
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Campfire Tracker
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Have you been shooting your 375H&H?
randy..
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Thx STA, till know I've not thought much about the 35's exceptin in a Marlin...may have to change that thought process... That's a lot of gas, has the makings to be a heck of a yote load! How long of tube are your running? Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire Tracker
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25inch Shilen #4....
randy..
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Campfire Tracker
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Dober, you dont like yotes very much do you....grins...
randy..
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Thx, I likey!
Beat up on any elk with it and that load yet? I'm for betting it just might work...grin
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire Tracker
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No just paper with the 280's but have killed some Missouri whitetails with the 225's....
randy..
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