Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Police Watch

But that's exactly the point, isn't it? It is precisely in light of this fact that a free society ought not create a class of human beings with the level of arbitrary power that we've allowed to be given to policemen, and then send them out in large numbers amongst us as the societal norm. It would be different if such a force (on a much smaller scale) existed for the sole purpose of serving warrants, or perhaps even (like the Fire Department) to respond to specific calls for assistance. The problem is the patrol atmosphere. This creates an environment that's fundamentally inconsistent with a state of liberty, and one which encourages our legislators to create an ever expanding list of unlawful activities needing to be enforced. If it were deemed impractical to enforce such lists (no such thing as a perpetually patrolling army of government enforcers), such legislation would never be enacted.

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This already exsists with many SO's who have no LE patrol/investigatory duties. There mission is to serve civil & arrest warrants, run the jail, and guard the Courthouse/Judges as Court Officers.

In your rural/suburban areas, the SO is the only LE outside of the incorporated areas, that provide patrol & investigatory services to the citizens.

I've never understood why some of your larger urban areas have SO's in which the entire county is covered by PD's every square inch of it, yet they have Patrol & Investigative Div's. The Deputies do nothing but run around in an urban setting. I do understand that in some areas, the cities don't have PD's but contract the SO to do their LE duties.

We like the FD do respond to specific calls of service. Unlike the FD people won't call them unless it's on fire or smoking. They'll call LE for anything be it civil or criminal in nature. We're the only 24/7 365 community service/social service organization availible.

BTW if you polled the folks in the rural/suburban settings, they'll tell you they want their SO to patrol. You wouldn't believe the citizens who call in asking for additional patrol on their county roads and subdivision streets. This for everything from speeders, loud veh's, suspicious veh's etc etc. Like i've suggested to you before, go ride with your local SO and see what they do.

So it would better if we didn't prevent crime by patroling but remained at the station house to await calls like the Maytag repairman? I guess I don't understand that logic. Citizens already complain that we can't be everywhere all at once and in reality we go from call to call anyway. Except for dayshifts and the odd slow evening our guys are running calls back to back. 6 Deputies for 2640 square miles.

What laws would you have abolished then. Which ones would you keep and how do you keep the free society you desire without keeping the thugs from taking over. The dream of a perfect Utopia starts on the basis that there are no bad guys. In reality there are a lot of bad guys that would love to take advantage of the sheeple that would believe in Utopia. In the perfect society everyone loves each other, acts honorably and with the health and wellbeing of their fellow man in mind. I am sorry Hawk, that just isn't realistic.

I am all for personal protection and looking out for ones self, but what do you do with those that won't or can't protect themselves and become victims. If you get rid of Stalking laws, for example, and the suspect becomes bolder and goes to B&E, gets bolder yet, because the women he's stalking are scared and there is no law to protect them, so the suspect moves into Rape. Now we come in after the fact when we could have prevented it sooner. How many robberies, assaults and drunk driving accidents are prevented by the prescence of law enforcement patroling.

What do you do with those that won't take responsibility for their own conduct. Look at our country and how many people refuse to own up to their mistakes or take responsibility for the position they are in. In a perfect Utopia that wouldn't be a problem and we could be the Maytag Repairman and just go out to sweep up the occasional mess, after the fact, but people want us out there as a deterrent and as proactive crime prevention. If you have a better idea, I am all ears, I just don't see the logic behind hiding in the office because we are doing what the general populace has asked us to do.

Hawkeye doesn't get it and probably never will. I've suggested manytimes that he go ride with his local SO. That or go through a Citizens Police Academy Program. I'ld like to see him go ride, to truly see how things happen and experience the call response tempo on a weekend evening.

I think he's got a bit of i know how it is, so i don't have to go see for myself. I am sorry to say that he, really truly doesn't have a clue.

See, it's this kind of arrogance that's the problem. You really think we need a constant Big Brother presence to remain free? That's amazing to me. Quite the contrary, in fact, is the case. Hardly anything more formidable to a criminal element than a free people.

Also, you seem to equate the absence of a constant police patrol with the absence of law. This is not the case. In fact, the more people become dependent on a constantly patrolling police force (combined with thousands of victimless crimes to be enforced) the more real crime becomes a problem in society.

Hawk, I'm not attacking you and I'm not arrogant. I see it day in and day out that there are people out there that hold laws in contempt and do not follow the laws of man, much less of our society. I do not dispute that a free people willing to protect themselves and their own is more formidable then law enforcement could ever be. The problem is that there are too many that will not and cannot protect themselves. We are past the point in this society where everyone was taught how to protect themselves.

I was brought up knowing how to survive outdoors, take game, build a fire and survive on my own. But would you take a person that never grew up with that education and mindset and drop them off in the middle of the wilderness and expect them to be alright? Thats why I asked, what do we do different, nationally to get there. I know that you would be capable and willing to protect you and yours, but what about your neighbors, the old guy down the road and teenager going to college, living by herself for the first time.

How do we deter those that will not respect the laws of man, that would rape, murder and steal with no concscious, from harming those that don't have the ability to protect themselves and how to we decipher between the two. I don't know the answer to that, so I continue to do my job in the hopes that I am making a difference for those that need me. I am not trying to come across as arrogant, just expressing the view from here, from my life experiences.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the only possible alternative to a police state is anarchy. How did things work out for folks in America before there were cops continually patrolling society?

Thats what I was trying to get at up above. Society is different now, then it was back then. (wilderness analogy) People were already much more dependant on themselves for survival. At this point, I'll agree to disagree. I was trying to have a genuine discussion and it appears that my point of view is immaterial. I'm not saying I'm right and not saying you are right. I wish we could have our society made up of self reliant folks, but I don't know how to get us back to that place.

Whatever society accommodates you will have more of. Accommodate helplessness and dependence on police, and you'll have more of that.

When I lived in a community further south in Florida our neighborhood was having late night vandalism problems. What did we do? We didn't demand more police coverage. Instead we organized and the men volunteered to take turns doing night patrols. On my night, me and my dog (at that time a protection trained Doberman Pinscher), along with my two friends Smith & Wesson, went out and walked the streets till about 2:00 AM. Vandalism stopped.

Hawkeye, that is just paranoid nonsense. the fact that there are police abuses mean police shouldn't patrol? and we've been all over the many and ancient exceptions to the warrant requirement. I mean, maybe you live where vandalism is the biggest kind of criminal threat and want to give up active patrolling local LE as an expression of your Liberty Guy credentials, and if you can sell it to your neighbors more power to you....and you new bff Zen.


But I will pass, thanks just the same.

I'd still like to know what happens for all the folks incapable or unwilling to protect themselves.

They live with their family. At the very least, they live within a community, not out in the wilderness on their own. Also, we have laws and the courts and elected sheriffs and volunteer militias and volunteer night watch and neighborhood watch groups, and countless other ways for maintaining order and punishing criminals. Decent folks with guns, if their hands are not tied by tyrannical laws, can generally intimidate an actual criminal element into moving on or getting honest employment.

You folks seem to be convinced that the only alternative to millions of patrol cars snooping into everyone's business is anarchy and the slaughter of the innocents. That's what you've been indoctrinated into, so that's what you believe (also, it likely gives you a heightened sense of self-worth), i.e., you believe that civilization would collapse if we didn't have constant patrol by cops. Not the case. Decent folks can take care of themselves and their own communities, if given half a chance, and are far better off when they do just that. Neighborhoods, worse comes to worst, could hire private security services, and replace them with another service if they decide they're not happy with them.

I have no issue with people protecting themselves within their property. I have no problem with people protecting themselves out on the street as individuals.

I do have problems with people playing vigilante out in their communities. I feel you'll have more abuse of civil rights in this concept, then i do by trained LE.

What are you going to do in a situation of a B&E or other crime that requires an investigation to aid in prosecution. Do you feel that this is something that Joe Citizen should accomplish themselves?

You mention private security, they have no arrest authority. They still have to call sworn LE to take care of the issue.

Thank God!

So have them call the sheriff.

PS Cops actually don't have much if any more "arrest authority" than any other citizen.

TRH....you and your goofball buddy zen can come up with a few dozen police abuse incidents....

There are MILLIONS of violent crimes committed in the US every year.

And your solution is to have less police, less patrolling and rely on families and neighborhood watch. Get a freaking clue, man.

Many don't have families and the community around them could care less. Don't equate your experience with that of the average citizen. Many didn't have your opportunities and don't see the world the same as you. The urban jungle makes the wilderness look like Disney. Elected sheriffs? Aren't they LE? You'd be hard pressed to find a group of people, in the real world, willing to give up their time and safety to serve in a militia nowadays.

"You folks seem to be convinced that the only alternative to millions of patrol cars snooping into everyone's business is anarchy and the slaughter of the innocents. That's what you've been indoctrinated into, so that's what you believe (also, it likely gives you a heightened sense of self-worth), i.e., you believe that civilization would collapse if we didn't have constant patrol by cops. Not the case. Decent folks can take care of themselves and their own communities, if given half a chance, and are far better off when they do just that. Neighborhoods, worse comes to worst, could hire private security services, and replace them with another service if they decide they're not happy with them."

Never said anarchy was the only alternative, just trying to point out your world is not the same as the guy's down the street or the 90 yr old with no relatives, etc.

The only thing I've been indoctrinated into was taking care of my family and myself, while not relying on anyone else to do so. I think you're the one suffering from a heightened sense of self worth.

"Decent folks can take care of themselves and their own communities, if given half a chance, and are far better off when they do just that. Neighborhoods, worse comes to worst, could hire private security services, and replace them with another service if they decide they're not happy with them."

Cause everyone has the discretionary funds to do that and let's not forget the most important ingredient, the will to do so.

"What are you going to do in a situation of a B&E or other crime that requires an investigation to aid in prosecution. Do you feel that this is something that Joe Citizen should accomplish themselves?"

I hear waterboarding works.

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Even with citizens arrest, LE still has to take control of the suspect. All the citizen has to do is sign the Mittimus and take out the warrant and appear in court. All the other admin. requirements LE still has to do.

Like i've stated you need to go ride with your local LE to see some reality. That or get involved as a Reserve Deputy in your local SO. You might learn that things aren't as you think they are.

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Call the Sheriff? I know that you probably have read Zen's Sheriff story of being the only LE. FYI, for the most part if the incident took place within a jurisdiction of a PD, that PD will be the responding agency.

Yes, the Sheriff and his/her Deputies have jurisdiction throughout the county. The agency within the incorporated boundaries if you live in a city/town will respond. If you live in an unincorporated area of the county or contracted city, for the most part the SO will respond.