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Because a reasonable person would see that the pharmacist turned his back away from the downed perp then,while back turned away, moved further away from him to leave the store only to then step back over him when returning to then, turn his back to the downed perp once again to reload. If he had any fear of death or harm he never would have done those things and he would have pumped another round into the perp well before the reload.
Getting outside that box and thinking things fully through has often been your downfall.
The Swedish judge says: Game, set and match to isaac.  Hard to argue with that! John
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Campfire Kahuna
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Going back, reloading and then firing into the downed perp is pre-meditated, any one that has cleared any kind of room be it Law Enforcement or Military knows, you do not LEAVE anyone behind you that could fire, this Pharmacist is screwed, and honestly if I were on the jury, yeah, that is how I would look at it. He passed him up to pursue the second party, obviously not concerned with the 1st one down, which in my mind means that the threat has been stopped with the 1st perp. Sorry, but the lawyers will argue that too, and they will probably win.
Back in the heartland, Thank God!
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Campfire Ranger
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For all we know at this point, it could be that he at first assumed the prostrate armed robber to be dead. I have no doubt your are 100% correct. and when he relalized the perp was not dead he rectified that. But its not a justified shoot. we can beat the horse to juice if we want to boys... the point of fact is that the DA nd the police in the town feel that it wasnt a solid SD shoot and have taken steps to punish the man for what he did. you know what... I'll bet Obama has a hand in it.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'm not a lawyer, not an LEO, never been on a jury, never even been called to jury duty, I did however stay at a Super 8 one time.
That said, we can't see what is going on with the headshot criminal. Like TRH said, maybe the pharm thought the criminal was dead, the pharm checked outside, then the criminal comes to, begins moving, and possibly going for a potential weapon, justifying the final shots. Nobody knows what the criminal was doing, I've seen the word 'incapacitated' used, I've seen that he was 'laying on his back', but without another camera angle, we can't see what was happening, or the timing that any of it was happening. To me, that is a reasonable doubt. Throw that doubt in with the fact 'that some people just need killing' and I know how I vote.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I can't see that scenario, at all. When the pharmacist returned back inside the store, his gun was empty and the downed perp was in full view. Had the shooter, at all, believed the perp was back at it, he would not have approached the perp with an unloaded weapon, stepped over or just beside him and then turn his back to him to reload another weapon.
If the pharmacist's gun was empty and he came back into the store with a unloaded weapon to a re-energized perp, he would have high-tailed it in the opposite direction and not take the actions he did take.
Further, I suspect his initial statements to LE supported the decision to levy the criminal charges.
Last edited by isaac; 06/01/09.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Tracker
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Further, I suspect his initial statements to LE supported the decision to levy the criminal charges.
That may be true, but the rest is supposition.....your conclusions don't take into consideration the possibility that the pharmacist wasn't thinking logically under the stress of the situation.....are you certain, if your were in the situation of having shot one and repelled another armed robber, that you couldn't make a "tactical mistake" such as turning your back on the bad guy???... I can see a good lawyer establishing reasonable doubt if the pharmacist didn't already talk himself into prison with his statement to the police......based strictly on the video I watched, I would not vote to convict him of murder 1 because I can't tell what the robber is doing off camera........as far as I'm concerned, the pharmacist is innocent until proven guilty and, to me, the video does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he executed the robber........ I've seen some strange things happen with shooting cases in Oklahoma, it will be interesting to see how this one comes out.......
Cancer Sucks
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Well, I can see according to the footage shown, that the defender looks bad, for going back and shooting him again, but as far as I am concerned it was still in the heat of the moment.
It's true we can't see what the perp is doing at the time of the final 5 shots. But lots of things could be going through the defender's head at that time. Putting myself in the defender's place. I might have thought and done the following.
First, I have just been in a gunfight for my life. My gun is empty, but I know I have another, and if the perp on the ground is still moving, I might choose to retreive that second weapon, espacally if I have other people to worry about, and not just myself. My head is spinning, at this time. My blood is boiling, I feel violated, and still very upset, the perp is moving, he might have a weapon I don't see, and one perp has already gotten away, I will be dammed if I am going to let this bastard get away, and since he is still moving, Yeah, I pumped 5 more rounds into him in the heat of the moment, just like I have shot many a game animal that was still moving. It's just instinct.
In theory, this shooting might not be justified, but in reality, if I was on that jury, I would let him walk, or at the very least a very light slap on the wrist. This trial maybe won by who does the best job of kicking the right people off of the jury, based on which side of the case you are on.
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One thing for sure, the masked man won't need any Oxy for his injuries.
No blame from my corner.
220 Swift still king.
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Hell, i think the vid should be looped and prominently on display at every pharmacy and quickshop counter - how's that?
I realize the law tries to parse intent here (self defense vs. murder), which is well intentioned, but seriosly, in my mind it was "game over" when the two perps attempted an armed robbery. A mother cryin' about her baby being so innocent, a pharmacist charged w/ murder???? - give me a f'n break. A shame when over-analysis overturns reason.
Golldammed motion detector lights. A guy can’t even piss off his porch in peace any more.
"Look, I want to help the helpless. It's the clueless I don't give a [bleep] about." - Dennis Miller on obamacare.
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Campfire Ranger
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the camera isnt the only wintness. there were two other people in the shop who are going to testify.
some of you guys need to watch that clip a few times and watch the guys movement.
when he walked back in he went straight to the drawer and laid the pistol down, retrieved the new pistol and walked up to the guy. when his arm moves forward theres barely time to count off 5 rounds.
he didnt do anything other than execute that kid.
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Campfire Sage
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Well, I can see according to the footage shown, that the defender looks bad, for going back and shooting him again, but as far as I am concerned it was still in the heat of the moment.
It's true we can't see what the perp is doing at the time of the final 5 shots. But lots of things could be going through the defender's head at that time. Putting myself in the defender's place. I might have thought and done the following.
First, I have just been in a gunfight for my life. My gun is empty, but I know I have another, and if the perp on the ground is still moving, I might choose to retreive that second weapon, espacally if I have other people to worry about, and not just myself. My head is spinning, at this time. My blood is boiling, I feel violated, and still very upset, the perp is moving, he might have a weapon I don't see, and one perp has already gotten away, I will be dammed if I am going to let this bastard get away, and since he is still moving, Yeah, I pumped 5 more rounds into him in the heat of the moment, just like I have shot many a game animal that was still moving. It's just instinct.
In theory, this shooting might not be justified, but in reality, if I was on that jury, I would let him walk, or at the very least a very light slap on the wrist. This trial maybe won by who does the best job of kicking the right people off of the jury, based on which side of the case you are on. As you describe it, at best it's manslaughter. No way fully justified by that scenario. He should not be admitting to it if what you describe is accurate.
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Campfire Sage
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the camera isnt the only wintness. there were two other people in the shop who are going to testify.
some of you guys need to watch that clip a few times and watch the guys movement.
when he walked back in he went straight to the drawer and laid the pistol down, retrieved the new pistol and walked up to the guy. when his arm moves forward theres barely time to count off 5 rounds.
he didnt do anything other than execute that kid.
Most likely, you're correct about the execution, but under a heat of passion defense, he could get off with manslaughter. Who wouldn't still be pissed off in the extreme still just a minute or two after an attempted robbery?
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Campfire Outfitter
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I listened to the shooter on O'Reily yesterday. He does not seem like a very capable person. Here is a reasonable explaination for what we see in the video.
He most likely screwed up in all the excitement and that is why he did not pay attention to the guy on the ground. Then he noticed the guy on the ground moving and reaching into his pocket. This was threatening and justified the shooting.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Most likely, you're correct about the execution, but under a heat of passion defense, he could get off with manslaughter. Who wouldn't still be pissed off in the extreme still just a minute or two after an attempted robbery?
I can tell you from experience the first thing you feel is shock, then extereme rage that some one would do that to you. He should have stayed out side and gone for help. Buy not seeing that guy in there, he might have cooled off some. Call me insensitive, as for the kid the only thing he is going to miss out from is a long illustrious crimnal career.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Who wouldn't still be pissed off in the extreme still just a minute or two after an attempted robbery?
________________________
All inside 30 seconds, I believe.
I, too, saw the interview on O'Reilly. I suggest he work a plea to MS. The prosecutor will seek jail time so,of course, that's up to the Pharmacist. It will be interesting to hear or read his initial comments to LE.
From the video I saw, the pharmacist's comments on O'Reilly and having practiced for near 24 years, I'm not seeing a full acquittal. Maybe a hung jury and then a retrial but no acquittal.
I hope his lawyer isn't going the all or nothing route. The pharmacist did not come across as convincing,IMO.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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I would agree that a Manslaughter conviction is the most likely outcome in this case, followed by a few years in jail. Even though what he did fits the legal definition of Murder in the First, a conviction for that is typically reserved for cold-blooded murderers or those committing a felony at the time of the murder, i.e., rape, bank robbing, etc.
Whatever the outcome, the pharmacist's life is wrecked. It's a lesson in shooting only to stop and no more - Self Defense/Concealed Carry 101.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I will add, as an aside, that I have learned far more from the Campfire folks and their arguments/positions in regards to voir dire and jury selection than I ever have from any law book, treatise, professsor and/or experts in the field.
It's invaluable!
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yep, "ignorantia juris non excusat" may an easier sell that we ever believed.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Isaac You might find this interesting............in the following survey, 59% of Oklahoman's surveyed agree with me........ http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-survey-intruders-story,0,187995.story
Oklahomans respond to survey on intruders
SurveyUSA News Poll
Oklahomans were asked a series of questions on how they might respond to an intruder. Here are the results.
On May 28th Geography Surveyed: Oklahoma City DMA Data Collected: 05/28/2009 Release Date: 05/28/2009 14:30 ET Sponsor: KFOR-TV Oklahoma City
1 Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = � 4.2%
Have you seen the surveillance camera footage of a pharmacy shooting in Oklahoma City?
67% Yes 31% No 2% Not Sure
2 Asked of 334 who have seen footage
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = � 5.4%
Do you think the pharmacist should? or should not? be charged with first degree murder?
36% Should 59% Should Not 6% Not Sure
On May 27th Geography Surveyed: Oklahoma City Area Data Collected: 05/27/2009 Release Date: 05/27/2009 14:15 ET Sponsor: KFOR-TV Oklahoma City
1. Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = � 4.2%
Thinking about cases where an intruder breaks into a home or business...when an intruder is shot multiple times, is that excessive force?
30% Yes 68% No 3% Not Sure
2. Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = � 4%
When an unarmed intruder is shot at, is that excessive force?
23% Yes 72% No 5% Not Sure
3. Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = � 4.4%
When a fleeing intruder is shot at, is that excessive force?
40% Yes 56% No 5% Not Sure
4. Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = � 3.6%
If there were a gun in your home or place of business, do you think you could ever bring yourself to use that gun to shoot an intruder?
79% Yes 18% No 3% Not Sure
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If that didn't surprise you, I'm sure this will! Developments at pharmacist's hearing
JOLEEN CHANEY REPORTING
OKLAHOMA CITY -- Thursday morning Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland stood before a judge during his bail hearing where there was a development that seemed to stun everyone.
Ersland said his attorney ordered him not to talk to anyone and he is not the only one who is keeping quiet.
"I wish I could do an interview, but they won't let me.... my attorney will fire me," Jerome Ersland said.
Ersland is not the only one afraid to talk. Those close to him will not go on camera either. They say they fear for their lives, but that did not stop others who do not know Ersland from supporting him today after he bonded out of jail.
"We feel this individual is being railroaded. He is a veteran,"
Ersland was discharged from the Army after he suffered life-threatening injuries - injuries he is still dealing with today.
"I'm very happy he was able to get bond," Ersland's attorney, Irven Box said. "I was concerned with his safety in jail. He's on medications. He's in a lot of pain."
One day after the shooting the pharmacist told NewsChannel Four his physical condition and fear for his and his co-workers lives prompted him to fire at the two juvenile robbers - killing one of them. Now prosecutors fear Ersland's life could be in danger. District Attorney David Prater insisted Ersland be allowed to carry a gun even though he was charged with first degree murder. The judge seemed stunned by the request.
"You're saying the DA in Oklahoma County wants him to have a gun," Judge Tammy Bass-Lesure said.
"That's right," David Prater said.
The judge did not agree, and her decision has angered some of Ersland's supporters.
"If she doesn't allow him to protect himself," Mike Manning said. "He's going to be dead in a week. What they're doing to this businessman is wrong."
Accused pharmacist out on bail
JESSE WELLS REPORTING
OKLAHOMA CITY -- An accused killer is released from jail in Oklahoma County today. A judge allowed Jerome Ersland to be released on a $100,000 bond.
Ersland is charged with murder after shooting 16-year-old Antwun Parker following a failed robbery attempt at Ersland's pharmacy.
The court drama all started when the district attorney argued, if Ersland returns to work at the pharmacy, he should have access to a gun in case he's ever robbed again.
After a heated debate, the judge didn't agree. Some feel that decision could put the defendant's life in danger.
"I worry about his safety. He's already had threats. I worry about his safety, being at work without a weapon," said defense attorney Irven Box.
Neither the judge, nor district attorney David Prater wanted to talk about the dispute today.
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