Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles opinion of 7mm-08 rem. vs 308

When I said +P+ to the pic explaining a lot, I meant it strictly with respect to the scope mounting situation. If you check my posts on this thread you'll find I've tried to avoid any nastiness. My interest was to figure out how someone could actually need a scope (with about 4" of eye relief) mounted so far back.





Honest question: Have you received any coaching or instruction since you were six but before you became set in your ways? I ask this because your extreme rearward head position reminds me of my friend's young son when he shoots the 22 that's too long for him. His head is that far back because it can't go forward. From a mechanics viewpoint I'm interested in how yours is still way back there.





I'm no expert either, just an interested observer who became fascinated with figuring out the geometry of the situation.





I'm not one of those guys. My Leupolds ride a bit farther forward than that. The oculars are typically ahead of the tang and near the rear of the bolt.

Model 7 stocks don't confuse me either.

Ahhh yes, yet another victory claim.
The first one got us to 38 pages.

Jeff, your problem isn't the scope at all, really, it's not.
It's your LOP that's [bleep] up.

Mathman

I think you have a point on the stock length issue. Unless he hunts in a t-shirt things will really get interesting with some heavy clothes on.

I've also seen those with eye dominance issues have the same desire to have their head farther back in order to subconsciously bring the dominate eye more into play over the center line of the rifle or shotgun.

SKane

What are the odds you will get "any" agreement from Jeff re: LOP?

I don't necessarily think the stock is too long or Jeff is short of limb. It just seems to me he's holding the stock like it's too long.

I think the lop is wrong, but just my opinion.

I have also seen physical issues such as a bad back or neck cause a shooter to be prone to having the head to far back and also alter foot position which ends up with the same result. To much weight transferred to the rear foot is not good.

You may as well be talking to the wall. As has been posted several times before, a picture is worth a 1000 words, some 2000.

I think his head is naturally tilted back that way from having it up his A$$ so frequently.

I've often read that the correct place for the ocular is over the tang bolt. I set my scopes as far forward as possible for me to use and I find that many of them hit about there.

I see nothing wrong with where the scope is located.

I'm not a Jeff fan, but it is possible that with this stock, this scope and his individual body shape this is the compromise he came up with. However, it is an obvious compromise.

All my hunting stocks are just at or over 13in LOP. Most pick them up in the summer and say: "To short for me." I find it reveling they in winter when they have extra clothes on they say: "I think I could shoot this" or "feels good, how does it shoot."

LOP, pitch, cast and drop are terms usually applied to shotgun fit, but they also have their place when it comes to rifles. If I was having a big bucks custom rifle stock made it would be by a maker who understands such, but I don't see it mentioned often in the rifle threads. Getting it close to correct-and with a scope close is all you need-is not hard for one who understands those dimensions. However, long neck, short neck, barrel chested, arm length, hand size all warrant subtle changes that can make a difference. Then there are those "naturals", give them anything and they will shoot it well.

Kimbers seem to recoil less because of the straight comb, but for me the pitch is wrong and they don't fit my shoulder pocket well in that some of the pad is above my shoulder when mounting offhand. I can adjust, but its not the best. One of the ways I adjust is by placing more weight on the ball of my front foot.

Long winded way to say one size doesn't fit all, but it means nothing if you don't have a basic understanding of what is correct to begin with.

Here-here!

Beer here!! Get your cold beer here!!!

Addition: And in that vein Go Pens!!!!!

As far as I can tell, the lower voltage in my shop was causing it to draw more current, which was triggering the thermal cutoff.

I just got done using it to power my air nailer, putting hardwood floors in two rooms, and it worked perfectly. That was with "house electricity".

I shoot non-AO scopes quite a bit at long range. A side benefit of having a little black around the image at full power is that it makes it easier to keep your head centered and avoid parallax to some degree. Try it.

I am not contorting my body. I WOULD be contorting my body if I moved the scopes forward. Especially the Zeiss on that M7.

I shoot from field positions all the time.

I am really and truly not trying to be difficult here, but it would be infuriating if it wasn't kind of funny, to have a bunch of people taking shots at me for mounting a scope slightly differently than they would. These are MY RIFLES, and I have put a lot of thought and testing into setting them up- for me. You think I haven't tried the scope a little forward from my preferred position? REALLY? Well, you'd be wrong.

It's especially funny that they keep mentioning getting hit by scopes, since that never happens to me, and is a symptom of "chasing" the image and crawling the stock- something I do not do.

A consistant cheek weld, a stunning eye box at low powers, and a little black around the image at high powers work great for me. YMMV.

Jeff
I'm leaving to do a bit of shotgunning on clays along with someone who knows a lot more about it than me. When he gives me some tips on what I'm doing wrong or how to take advantage of what I'm doing right, I'll pay attention and thank him after it's over. Most of us can and are willing to learn. YMOV.

Wall, you listening? Wall, you there? Hello, wall?...

SKane,

If you read back carefully, you'll see that Art's two-pronged attack on me is inconsistant WITH ITSELF. That is the victory I claim. I do not in any way, shape or form claim that my way of mounting a scope is best for anyone but myself. In fact, I think you guys have proven that it isn't, and that's fine.

The victory I claim, rightfully, is that I have boxed Art in logically, and he can't get out. He's left with bluffing. Not gonna fly.

I've spent considerable time and money, with two different gunsmiths (Larry Brace being one, before his death) working out what my optimum LOP is. I used to shoot a LOT of clays (with a Citori). I'm not a stranger to how a gun should fit.

You guys need to back off on this one. Art, damn his hide, started this on the false premise that I was SO CLOSE to the scope that I was seeing black around the image from being FORWARD of the eye box. He's too arrogant to back up and admit he was making a rather absurd presumption, but that's on HIM. You guys don't need to own that one, too.

Now that I've carefully explained that isn't so, it's time for you guys to take a deep breath here. There is no reason to keep taking shots at someone who is setting up a rifle so that it works for them. My scopes are not mounted where they are by accident. I've tried them further forward. I've tried more LOP, and less LOP. I know how my rifles behave from sitting, prone, uphill, downhill because I shoot them that way EVERY WEEK. Several of them are hard kicking sporters. They don't touch me, and I'm not afraid of them, they are my friends. I already said, my Kimber Montana .325 DID bite another guy who shot it- so probably, my way ISN'T best for everyone. It wasn't for him (though he crawled the stock and shot before I could stop him). I've put close to a thousand rounds through that rifle and it's never touched me.

My image with the Zeiss on my M7 SPRINGS to my eye, perfecto in every way, when I shoulder and mount the rifle the way I do it.

So what, exactly, is the problem here?

The problem is, Art ran with a misunderstanding, and in his usual way once confronted with it, his game now is to fall back to the "you're so stupid" line of argument. That's his perogative, but yes. I will declare victory over someone who refuses to actually deal in the realm of facts, and simply casts vague aspersions. Screw that.

Actually, I prefer 7mm-08, myself.

Have fun! I love shooting clays. I use a Citori O/U, fitted to me by Larry Brace before his death. Yeah, my LOP isn't accidental. Yeah, I've put some money and effort into learning from people I'm in ACTUAL PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH, what works best for me.

By the way, I'm a skootch shy of 6-4", have long arms, and have a congenitally stiff neck, though it's not a short one as far as I can see.

But I know, I know... how MY body works isn't relevant.

Not picking on you Battue; you've been reasonably polite. But for Pete's sake, to be lambasted like I have been for mounting a SCOPE slightly different than some of you?

That just ain't right.

Have fun shooting. I hope you do indeed learn something.