Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire BTAF SCORES AGAIN

NO COMMENT, except it looked like a Waco replay! Would not disclose what warrant was for, said it was sealed in court records, WHY? Everyone watched while the house burned to the ground, they had the means to put it out without endangering the fire department, they sprayed water on the houses next door instead of putting out the fire, WHY?<BR>Are we all in danger from within? -- no<P>Hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday!!

Oh heck yes! The BATF has long been out of control. I was really hoping Gee Dubya would tighten the reigns on them a little. I found this over at Free Republic.<P>---------------------------------------------<P>I watched the video of a suspect burned alive today. He was, admittedly and allegedly, a Bad Man&#8482;. He was allegedly a felon in possession of firearms and I have heard conflicting reports that he was impersonating an officer, or the alternate story, that he was a former police officer. Certainly he committed felony murder in front of witnessing officers.<P>However, there is SUPPOSED to be due proccess in America. There was a fire that was started by sources unknown. Frankly, it matters not who started the fire. The response was unforgivable.<P>I saw with my own two eyes the following: <P>Two streams of water were directed at the houses on each adjacent side of Becks (the shooters) house. NOT ONE DROP WAS DIRECTED AT BECKS HOUSE.<BR>When the house was completely immolated, but the garage was not consumed, water was directed at the Beck house, seemingly to cool it a little.<BR>Beck was last seen in the garage. The door opened and closed.<BR>When the garage started catching, the water was no longer directed at the structure and the garage was allowed to burn to the ground.<P>The excuse given by some more gov't-apologist-type Freepers, was that the firefighters were not willing to put themselves at risk.<BR>YET THE PRESS CONFERENCE SPOKESPERSON REVEALED THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS WERE EMPLOYING ROBOTS ON THE LADDER TOPS TO FIGHT THE FIRES.<P>Ergo, there is NO EXCUSE not to try to fight the fire at the Beck residence. THIS FIRE WAS PURPOSEFUL AND INTENDED TO KILL BECK. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>This is RENO JUSTICE! What the h*ll is going on in America when we burn suspects alive, on purpose? This is wrong. This is Soviet-style activity. Our country is devolving into a Soviet-style tyranny, and I for one am furious.<BR>I am not repeat NOT defending the shooter. He committed felony murder. He was allegedly a felon in possession of firearms. He was allegedly impersonating a US Marshall. Bad guy all around.<P>THAT SAID, AMERICAN LAW REQUIRES DUE PROCESS AND BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE IS NOT DUE PROCESS!!! Wait and talk him out. Seige him. Do what you need to do but BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE ON PURPOSE is Reichstag behavior. It's Stasi behavior. It is a horrid sign of where our country is going to. We scarely have the right to criticize the former Soviet Union, or China, if we behave like this (and if Freepers defend this sort of behavior)<P>____--------------------------------------___<P>The news has a more mundane story in which Beck is painted as a madman. I don't believe a thing on the media any more.<BR>7mm

I'm not defending the BATF but he did have the choice of surrendering, did he not? He was obviously a felon in possession of firearms, and he did kill one of the officers on the scene, I mean, which one of you guys is going to try to save him? And then, the next question becomes, why and how?

It's a given that the guy killed a cop, and probably woulda ended up in the electric chair. However, why couldn't they have used the water cannons on his house to put out the fire, or at least control it? <P>They used to spend days talking and negotiating with these types, and usualy brought these standoffs to a peacful end. Nowadays, it seems like the feds are more than ready to use deadly force. With the ATFs track record of late, I'd think twice before surrendering to them.<P>I don't know, Cat. Maybe they were completely justified in their actions. It just worries me that maybe they were not.<BR>7mm

It is a hard to blame them for this becous they don't know what would have hapend if they got neer. It seemed to be a syco with a gun who just wanted to keep shooting. But I think that it is likly that he would want help insted of burning. Never less it is there job to save lives, even criminals. Let the cort diside his fate.<P>I think that it's was a lot less stupid then at Waco. (not to say that it wasn't)

I am somewhat hesitant to even respond to this. However, I feel I must come to the defense of the fire service in this situation.<P>There has always been some tiff between fire services and law enforcement agencies when it come to motor vehicle accidents. It is more apparent in some areas than it is in others. The fire service is concerned with rescue and patient care and law enforcement is concerned with traffic control and accident reconstruction.<P>Once in my 25 year career as a paid FF/Paramedic I had the unfortunate responsibility of responding to airplane crash. Because of the difficult terrain and long response times there were no survivors. As soon as the FAA arrived we were told to leave that our services were no longer needed. It is the law in Kentucky that the only person that can pronounce a person dead is the county coronor and until he arrives on the scene the highest medically trained individual must stay with the body(s). To make a long story short, I was placed under arrest and found out first hand that when a federal officer is on the scene they are in charge.<P>There is no doubt in my mind those firefighters would much rather have put the fire out than to have just protected the exposures. Sometimes you just have to do what you are told to do.

That's just the point, the law enforcement told the fire department to stay back when it was clearely apparent the water cannon, remotely controled could have put the fire out just after it started in the one room. The tear gas cannisters must have started the fire. That is another subject, why do they use tear gas? Pepper spray will do the job with no heat. I personally saw a large restaurant emptied out with two very small squirts of pepper spray directed at the floor, kitchen help and all. When I trained troops we used tear gas, had to put the crystals on a candle heater or sterno heater to activate them. Does this mean the cannisters they lob into a structure are heated and cause fires? I doubt a man defending his house would be in a back upstairs room instead of on the ground floor. Who knows if they even had a search warrant and the guy was not allowing them to enter his home,(his right), and was defending it, when the deputy was shot and it escalated from there. You and I have seen the excuses some law enforcement agencys come up with. I think there should be a full investigation of this incidence and follow-up warrants issued to any guilty parties. I am for law enforcement not agendas!! Yes, I have had my training and been in enforcement and have seen it abused on both sides, that is no excuse for anybody. I for one do not trust the BTAF, even with the tough job they have, seems they have started playing GOD in too many incidences. Any enforcement officer, guilty of violating anothers rights should be punished to the maximum, no exceptions! This is still America, but for how long? -- no

Tear gas grenades definitely have some sort of internal burning fuse material in them, while in the army I saw a couple set the woods on fire, at Ft. Bragg that was just routine forest Management, something was always burning somewhere!<P>Mike

Ever great nation has fallen from within and so shall we....... power without guidance, authority without oversite either is called corruption.

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!!!<BR>How many of you read this thread and wanted to voice your honest opinion but in your heart were afraid to. That is one of the reasons we as hunters, shooters, gun owners, are in trouble today. Our country is in trouble, because everyone is afraid of reprisals from the authority governing us. Afraid the government at city, county, state, federal government, level will get a vindetta against us and punish us through the IRS, or other enforcement agencys. WE ARE AFRAID TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED LIKE OUR FOREFATHERS DID. We have become a country of conformers to what ever group of people are in power. We have forgotten WE are the power. I am too old to be brow beaten by anybody and it breaks my heart to see what our country has become from some of the idiots in power. <BR>Sorry for the outbreak, you young bucks better wake up and quit waiting for someone else to do it. "What can I do is no excuse", damm it, do it. Get your friends and neighbors together and take them to vote! Start with supper with your neighbor, then another, then a block party. It works, get to know your neighbor and talk. You have to start somewhere, your child depends on YOU! Wave at everybody you see, smile, the returns are great. -- no

Why does the BATF make a Custer`s last stand over arrests. Why aren`t these guys watched,then surounded,surprised, and arrested in the street? There has to be a reason.

Sonnie, it is pretty convenient for many to say "I hate what this country has become" when what has actually happened is a little selective memory.<BR>I suppose the McCarthy era was a misunderstanding? The Hollywood blacklist times were just an FBI coverup? Maybe the Selma marches were nothing but a group of anarchists bent on revising the constitution?<P>There has always been some difference of opinion on how law enforcement has handled the delicate duties of upholding the law, especially in high-profile cases. However, the one most important fact is that in all these recent high-profile cases the "victim" had the opportunity to turn themselves in and let the courts decide the guilt or innocence of not only the defendant, but the system that handled the arrest.<BR>If you want to go on about how the BATF did this, or the FBI did that, or the police are out of control- then you are indicting the entire LE system. If you can't see an isolated incident for what it is, then you are no better than the anarchists in Seattle, you simply have a different point of view.<P>Now, to simplify things let's get down to the facts as I can understand them from what little I have seen in the papers and news reports. The guy was a real bad guy, impersonating an officer and Marshal, shot and killed at least one police officer and fired at least 150 rounds into the residential area with impunity. The police decided not to try to go in and arrest him because of the imminent danger. Trying to put out a fire would have only endangered even more people due to the amount of firepower available to this scumbag. (We'll ignore for the moment that the "robotic fire equipment" seems to make everyone think that it was automatic that the fire could have been put out at any time.)<BR>On top of all this, this thread starts with "BATF scores again!" I haven't read anywhere that the BATF was even involved but that is a discussion for another time.<P>Now, I am the first to scream from the hilltops when rights have been trampled and I definitely think the various police of this country have had some black marks on their collective records the last few years but I am still a citizen of a great country and I believe in letting the facts surface before pronouncing judgement on men who faced an obvious fusillade of gunfire while making this fateful decision. This doesn't sound to me like a guy who wants to avail himself of "due process".<BR>A lot of guys on this thread remind me of the old west justice- except they want to "string up" the law enforcent officers instead of the criminal. I'm not sure what in this pitiful thread is sadder.- Sheister

The only difference in the outcome between this one and Waco is the body count.<P>2D

Shiester, -- I appreciate you response, you seem to have many facts we are not aware of. For instance just how much firepower did this man have? Do you know for a fact he was a fugitive? I thought the TV just said he was a convicted fellon,(for what), evidently he paid for his mistake and was back in society. Does that mean he looses all of his rights? Like someone else mentioned, if he was so bad why not arrest him in a discreet manor in a place of their choice where no one would be in danger. Why not where he worked or a million other places. They just wanted in his house to see what he had and that is protected by our very foundation as a free country. You darn right I get excited when I see incompetence cost a man his life and thousands of dollars in property damage. If it was his home like reported, he had to be approved for the loan so he must have been pretty reliable. He was single, perhaps his conviction was for beating his unfaithful wife, who knows. He may have been all the bad things you can imagine but it doesn't justify what we saw on TV, with our own eyes, just like Waco! How can anyone ever justify the lives lost at Waco when we saw that first hand. They went out there with an army ready to invade and they did. That was HOME for many familys, not just the man they wanted. It was their choice of life and freedoms granted by our constitution. Dang right they were wrong, and are wrong in many cases we don't see on TV. I watched for explosions from all the munitions he was supposed to have but failed to see any indications of explosives, did you? It will be interesting to see what is found in the way of weapons in the ruins, if it is ever reported. I have an interest in this country and I darn sure feel I have a say so in how it is run. Many vets feel the same way. I would speak up for your rights also. -- no

Sheister, I got to side with Sonnie. While I agree that this dude was probably bad news, the tactics involved leave me with alot of questions.<P>Was thje ATF involved? If not, why all the speculation over ATF casualties? What was the purpose of the raid? If it was only to serve a warrant, why couldn't they nab him on the street, away from a suspected arsenal? Is CS gas the only effective means of clearing the house? It's been well known to start fires.<P>I'm not saying the authorities were wrong, but I do question the tactics used. It does sound alot like Ruby Ridge and Waco. And as the ones who employed the tactics also do the investigation, is the complete truth ever to be known?<BR>7mm<P>The "official" story is available through the media at <A HREF="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,33424,00.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,33424,00.html</A> <P>As I said though, I don't care to trust what the media reports.

The polce stareting a fire (even no-entenchinly) and then let the fire kill anyone it just not right. I don't blame the fire dipartment they were told not to get neer.

Yes, the BATF was involved and rightfully so, since they are in charge of enforcing federal gun laws, which this guy was in obvious violation of. To read more on the story, go to <A HREF="http://www.LATimes.com" TARGET=_blank>www.LATimes.com</A> some excerpts follow: note, this is not the whole text.<P>XXXXX<P>"Authorities said James Allen Beck, 35, opened fire through his front door after federal agents and two sheriff's officials tried to serve a search warrant at his home in the Stevenson Ranch development, where crime is rare and fountains gurgle on the front lawns of spacious, Spanish-tiled homes.<P>"We were attempting to serve a search warrant . . . and the guy opened up on us," said William Woolsey, a supervisory deputy U.S. marshal. "He opened fire. Automatic weapon fire."<P>XXXXXX<P>"Shortly before, at about 8:30 a.m., eight ATF agents, two deputy U.S. marshals and four sheriff's deputies had surrounded Beck's house.<P>After Beck fired one round, Woolsey said, the officers backed off and Beck yelled, "My girlfriend is coming out through the garage, don't hurt her." An unidentified woman emerged from the home, and sheriff's officials said Friday night that she was being questioned.<P>Sheriff's Lt. Ray Peavy said Beck had spoken to his mother by telephone and to his girlfriend before she left the house, telling them he might not be leaving the house alive. With his girlfriend gone, Beck resumed shooting after yelling at the officers not to hurt his dog, Woolsey said.<P>The marshal said Kuredjian and another deputy arrived a short time later. Kuredjian, on patrol in the area, was shot as he was getting off his motorcycle, which was parked behind a large red sport utility vehicle several houses away from Beck's home, authorities said.<P>"Jake was one of the first ones to arrive," said Deeley. "He responded on his motorcycle. He stopped four doors east of the suspect's house. He took cover behind vehicles and was shot almost immediately after getting here, about two doors east of the house. The deputies at the scene were able to pick him up, carry him down to the end of the street, put him in a radio car and took him to the hospital."<P>The gunfire continued, with Beck allegedly firing not only at police on the ground, but at police and news media helicopters.<P>Frank Fisher, who lives about eight or nine houses from Beck, said he was outside when the shooting began and scurried behind a car. "We were pinned behind the car a good 40 minutes," he said.<P>Fisher described Beck as "a loner who kept to himself."<P>"He put bars on his windows and had a big old dog for protection," he said. "He told me and my neighbor he was FBI, he told other neighbors he was a marshal and now we find out he was neither."<P>XXXXXX<P>"By 1990, Beck had begun racking up a long string of arrests and convictions.<P>He was convicted at least three times and ordered to serve a total of more than 10 years in prison, said Supervising Deputy U.S. Marshal William Woolsey, a spokesman for the federal marshals office. It was not known how many years he ultimately served, authorities said.<P>According to law enforcement and court records, Beck was first convicted in 1990 for receiving stolen property--a Remington 870 shotgun and a .25-caliber Baretta. He was also convicted of grand theft, firearms violations and fraudulent use of someone else's credit card, on which he charged more than $1,300. He was sentenced to two years in state prison.<P>In the years that followed, Beck was arrested numerous other times: on suspicion of possession of firearms, receiving stolen property, carrying firearms in public, impersonating a police officer and being a felon in possession of an assault weapon.<P>He was again sentenced to prison, this time for four years, law enforcement and court records show.<P>In late 1992, Beck was convicted again, of first-degree residential burglary with the intent to commit larceny. Court documents say he broke into a trailer. That time, he was sentenced to six years in state prison."<P>End quoted text: Note, that there was a prior issued warrant which gave them the right to arrest the guy and to enter his home. If someone wants to make this guy into a poster boy for gun owners, then he and I are on the opposite sides of this one. He was a bad guy with some grandiose ideas that chose to shoot it out and got what he deserved, too bad an officer who was not directly involved in the whole deal had to get killed by the SOB in the meantime. Hope whoever owned the home had insurance, if it was not him.

Wheather this guy started the fire or not, he had plenty of opportunity to give himself up. This was nothing like Waco or Ruby Ridge. The innocents were allowed to leave. <P>He would be alive today if he had chosen to be. Do you think the police or ATF would have shot him down in front of a dozen TV cameras if he was trying to surrender? Maybe, but I doubt it. <P>I do not feel this guy was "one of us". From what I have heard of his background, he had little in common with the folks who visit this site. Let us not make a marter of a criminal who got what he was asking for.

Sonnie, 7mm, and others- the post above with the newspaper quote explains my post better than all the ranting and raving going on in this thread.<P>The simple fact is that this CRIMINAL chose not to surrender and made it impossible for law enforcement officers to bring him out in any peaceful manner.<P>The fact of this thread that dismays me most is the penchant for so many to jump to many assumptions without the "facts" to make a rational judgement on. Take it for what it is worth, but that type of rhetoric is simply vigilantism- plain and simple. While I appreciate that most of the people on this board are law abiding citizens who would jump to the assistance of others at the drop of a hat, the defense of this CRIMINAL in defiance of the law enforcement people involved speaks volumes about the general tendency of many on this board to jump to conclusions before the facts are available. That can be a pretty indefensible position to take if you find your conclusions are wrong, which IMHO, many of you are.<P>As far as not trusting the news media- granted the media may have a long way to go earn our trust, but to dismiss everything you hear and read out of hand wreaks of the same type of paranoia as UFO sightings, two headed cows, etc... and shows a lack of rational reasoning skills. In other words, take the time to get the facts before proclaiming publicly that "the sky is falling". <BR>Personally, I don't see this as anything like the WACO incident. The only similarities are fire and someone barricaded inside the house of his own free will. If this person chose suicide over turning himself over to the authorities, I don't feel the authorities need to put their life on the line to change that decision. -Sheister

Shiester, CAT, -- OK dudes, I was watching channel 12 here when the "breaking news", came on. From the first comment they had captioned about the deputy being shot "while serving a warrant", they said the details of the warrant were "not known" and was sealed in the court. Millions saw and heard the same thing I did as it was happining, we saw the tear gas cannisters being fired against the back of the house finally hiting and breaking the windows into the house. At the time nothing was said about the officer being shot three or four doors down the street. SOMEBODY NEEDS TO GET THE STORIES STRAIGHT! We were watching it unfold and being reported "AS IT HAPPENED". WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH? It's easier to tell the story the way you want it after the fact! As for jumping to conclusions I have seen that done here many times. No one said he was one of us, what idiot made that up! -- no<P>Shiester, as for ranting and raving, I didn't hear a thing, you must have very good ears.