Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Man sized 45/70 loads

lol wasnt saying there was anything wrong with it....more like a comment that the straight gripped fairly light Marlin Guide Guns arent exactly the best platform for very heavy loads ....its a rifle that tends to beat me up with heavy loads and it seems to be because of the design of the rifle......i love the gun but i aint going to be running full power loads through mine....it does pretty impressive things at pretty moderate velocities with a heavy chunk of lead.....if you like to hot rod yours more power to yah but i like running alot of rounds through mine because it is just a fun gun to shoot at things like chunks of tree trunks and watching them punch through 18 inches of wood, shattering volleyball sized rocks.....punching through 6-8 inches of dirt before hitting the gopher....you can do alot of that with fairly mild loads at under 100 yards.....and yah can do it alot more times in an afternoon if yah arent doing full power loads

If you want killing performance,don't bother with the hardcast slugs. They are penetrators pure and simple. Use a Hornady 350 gr flatpoint or the Nosler partition 300 grain. Ray had bad experiences with the old calibers mostly because he used big,heavy hardcast. The old time boys paperpatched their bullets and could use any lead alloy they wanted. I had perfect expansion and killing performance with a 535 grain SOFT cast paper patched slug on a moose. 30:1 lead to tin. Soft. NO LEADING because of the paper patch. Not practical for a levergun so use an expanding, penetrating bullet such as those I noted. You really don't require to kick them in the ass TOO hard. 1900 fps will do fine and they'll make BIG DEEP holes in anything you shoot them at.

As usual...we all dream and generalize as Marseille pointed out...and generalizing just causes hoohaas. For a beastie the size of a grizzly I want PENETRATION...they are thick in all directions, but penetration is a poor substitute for bullet placement. Sticking one from stem to stern only in the muscle mass won't do anything but pi** it off more.

You would be better served to learn how to shoot, then pick one of the several excellent bullets available for the 45-70 leverguns, THEN, go out and practice some more and test the penetration and bullet upset of that particular bullet and/or read up a little more on the why's and wherefore's of bullet upset vs no upset.

As far as rifle size I knew an ol'boy that used an open sighted 250 Savage Md 99 with 100 gr factory level reloads to take everything up to grizzly..,usually one shot each...I reloaded for him. 100 rounds lasted him 8-10 years.

I constantly laugh at the recoil issue with a levergun. My Marlin 356 W weighed 8 lbs new and bare...now slightly over 9 with scope, sling, and all the little foofoo pretties. My 458 WM SMLE 2A actioned rifle weighs near the same...9.6 lbs and I don't have any issues with the recoil with 500-550 gr bullets and I don't consider myself all that recoil proof, just learned how to shot heavy recoiling rifles.

I use a 430 gr Oregon Trails TrueShot loaded to 2050 fs for the most part. I consider it a mild load but it has 4000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and 3000 at 100 yds...doyathink it will handle a grizzly or any other N.A. game or African game???? and only about 45 ftlbs of recoil. Stiff but not all that much. With a MB that recol reduces to not much more than a 300 WM.

I think most of the "oooooh it hurts" comes from armchair hunters in reality.

I always take one of my heavies along when I go ratting and shoot up all of last years reloads in prep for the coming seasons. It keeps me aware of the difference between a 17 FB and a 45-120.

The old tried and tru Rem 405 factory load will handle all the game except grizzly in N.A., and the same bullet loaded up a bit is also excellent. I shoot eveything from 300 to 720 gr in my 45 cal shooters, hard caste, soft caste, jacketed, etc, but pick my bullet for the game I expect to hunt. I expect the bullet to perform in the way it was designed. When bullets expand, penetration depth decreases...hard cast bullets act like solids or FMJ's, and I don't expect one bullet to do everything.

And when things go sour, most of the blame goes on the hunters shoulders, NOT on the bullet. A bullet is a dumb "thing"...how can you blame a "dumb thing" for anything???? That's like blaming a car for running over a person. The car didn't do anything except what the driver told it to.

I know it is hard for humans with their fragile egos to accept blame or the consequences of their actions, but once you start you might find it much easier to learning a thing or several. LOL

No flame or diss intended to anyone. My observations are intended as learning tools for those interested...an alternative way of looking at things...maybe opening the eye to a different picture...but if taken as a fry job you can guess just how much I care.

Luck on your hunts.

Tried this load today and it worked excellent. Thanks, its my new pet load.

+1

Been using that load for 30 years; clocks 1800 FPS.

Knocks hell outta just about anything you care to shoot with it.

MM

I am currently using water quenched cast wheel weight bullets from the LEE 459-500-3r mould. These weigh in at 491.7 grains prior to lube,(Lyman super moly lube).
My load is 45.0 gr RX-7, WLR primer, 2.788" OAL.
For a 5 shot average at 16 ft over a CHRONY F1 Master:

My Enfield No. 1 that I re-barreled with a Navy Arms 22" 45-70 barrel gets 1665 fps.

My H&R Buffalo Classic 32" barrel gets 1754 fps.

Both rifles are running 1.82 and 1.36 inches CTC respectively for 5 shots off the benchrest at 100 yds.

I have varied the loads up and down and this load has given the tightest groups in both rifles so it is "IT" as far as I'm concerned.

I run 55 grains of 4895 behind 405 grain slugs and they leave at around 1,700fps (don't have my notes handy right now). Factory Remingtons with the same slug did around 1,230 fps. Unlike factory fodder, my loads do get my attention when I light one off. Surprisingly accurate too. My plans are to use it as a dark timber elk unit.

You don't say where "up country" he's headed or what sort of bears he's expecting to encounter. Blackies? Grizz? Alaska Brown? But if Brian Pearce dropped a Cape buff (pace, atkinson ) with CorBon ammo - 405 gr. @ about 1800 fps, IIRC - I doubt your buddy needs to shake his molars loose with 2000 fps. loads, even if he needs a stopping round as opposed to a hunting one. Given a decent load, bullet placement will likely be as important as an extra 100 fps.

BTW, anyone tried the new Barnes Busters?

Stuart