Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Tracks Across Africa --- and Lever Gun

Getting only slightly off the topic,how difficult would it be to successfully chamber a Winchester/Browning model 95,or Browning BLR into an "adequate" DG cartridge.Certainly 9.3x62 would not be difficult at all since it is dementionally so close to the 30.06,which is chambered in both.The 9.3x62 is legal in many African venues,and more than a few PHs will allow it's use on Buffalo even in areas where it is not actually legal on paper.
I suspect something considerably more powerful could be chambered in the BLR,as it is already chambered for at least three magnum cartridges.

You may or may not have feeding problems. The base of the 9.3 X 62 is fractionally larger in diameter just ahead of the extraction groove. Same for the 6.5 Swede. Also, the feeding rails may not feed the larger caliber without alteration, which might be tricky.

Might want to ask in the gunsmith forum.

You could probably make a 9.3mm-06 wildcat (surprised it hasn't been done) which would feed OK and which would meet the Zimbabwe minimum energy requirements for elephant and buffalo. Ballistics wouldjmust about duplicate a 9.3x62.

Hello-

I'm a PHO in RSA, as well as guiding in the USA and was asked by a client to comment here since I use a levergun regularly.

What is not being addressed in the above is that the majority of African Countries require a minimum Joules Count of Energy for a cartridge to be legal for dangerous game. Americans call it Muzzle Energy. The standard in American terms for African Dangerous game is 4000 ft/lbs M.E. I will not debate the usefulness of M.E. to determine a cartridges lethality, a 40 grain Asprin travelling 6500 FPS has 4000 ft/lbs. M.E. However, that is the standard in most Countries. South Africa does not have a minimum by law anymore so most levergun dangerous game hunts take place there. The 45-70 will not make the minimum M.E. for 4000 ft/lbs. The 45-90 can come very close. The 475 Turbull makes it in M.E. but is lacking in Sectional Density. I have personally put a bullet in over 30 buffalo including Cape, Water, Bison and Forest. A few were my own and some were back-up for clients. I have used a 45-70 Win 1886 with 405 gr Punch bullets at 2000 fps. I recently hunted with the Game Dept in Zambia and I used a 45-90 Model 1886 experimenting with 450 gr Northfork Solids at 1950 fps, and other bullets. We shot 2 elephants and 2 buffalo. The buffalo were shot with a 45-70 Punch as mentioned earlier. One Punch took an elephant on a frontal brain shot with the bullet just making it into the brain. One Northfork solid went from the ham of a buffalo facing away through the body and was recovered in the face. The Animal Control Officers has 470 N.E.'s. The leverguns in heavy calibers, particularly 45-90 with 450 grain premium bullets near 2000 fps are on the heels of the 458 Win Mag with the same bullet weight. However, I feel the bolt rifles with .40 caliber and up are a better tool for the job. I would not use the leverguns unless my client had a great deal of competency and a large, more than adequate cartridge for the job. On the Zambia trip it was not a hunt but Problem Animal Control. While the 45-90 performed admirably, the PAC Officers had my back with much more appropriate guns. I have no problem with a client using a levergun on DG if I think the bullet is appropriate and then I back them up with a 450/400 double, 458 Lott or minimally, 375 H&H with 380 gr Dzombo and Rhino bullets. Don't knock the 45-70, 45-90 and 475 Turnbulls ability to get it done on DG when they are utilized with a heavy dose of common sense. Too many dead animals tell the tale in my experience. I don't post here much because you have several Outfitters and PH's that frequent this site, but I am over at Leverguns.com regularly. I will excuse myself here and return to "read only" status, but I welcome any correspondence on this matter through private email or a phone call.

www.tarsporting.com
Worldwide Hunting Adventures
(469) 338-0071 USA
27-83 963-3911 RSA

Thomasmagnum;
+1 on your comments.
The current Hornady 450/400 ammo claim on their web site is their 400 grain bullet at 2050 fps. See link and click on view ballistics:
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=907504d4b473a71a73209fdee11d2af3&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=8f3de6cb20ce64cc9ea35de6099ff21c

This type bullet at this, or similar velocities has long been acclaimed as perfect for Cape Buffalo and adequate for elephant.

If that is so, (and who can argue with the experts?) what would be wrong with launching one of these or a similar 400 grain bullet from a modern lever action 1895 .405 Winchester? It is a handy and accurate rifle and loads for 400 grain Woodleigh bullets at 2030 to 2080 fps are easy to find if one tries. These are loads used in an 1895 that has not had the throat reamed out to allow more powder space.

And for 86er - thank you for stepping in and providing some information based upon experience on this topic. ALSO HERE IS A LINK TO DANGEROUS GAME RIFLE REQUIREMENTS BY COUNTRY FOR SOUTHERN AFRICA
http://bigfivehq.com/mincaliber.htm

Tracks Across Africa is one of the few hunting shows I will watch.

I watched that show this AM on my DVR. It sure took a lot of shots to do the job.

So long as it's legal, give or take, Craig can use what he wants and I'll do the same.

Is the .45-70 really legal in some parts of Africa? I know that's not what he was using, I'm just asking.

I really don't care if someone hunts DG with a lever gun as that is their perogative, but I have used the 45-70 and 45-90 enough to not want to ever shoot DG with them, especially elephant...

I also find it extremely hard to believe that one can stick a Northfork bullet of any caliber into the rear end of a cape buffalo and the bullet ending up in its face!!..I have shot too many buffalo in the rear, as they departed, with the super big bores to accept that as other than a freak accident or someone with an alias name doting on the 45-70 on the internet which has become a common practice on many of the blogs...The furtherest I have seen penetration is into the neck and that was with the really big bores and some of the high velocity big bores, and I have shot a lot more buffalo than 30, and have witnessed perhaps 500 buff kills in my life time of which I would venture most took a shot or two in the butt as theys departed from being shot in the shoulder..

It seems to me the lever guys have to always be on the defensive and so it should be as the old punkin rollers are terribly over rated and are pushed hard by a lot of folks who may or may not have much experience using them and are swollen with nostalgic dreams of yesterday, and prone to over stating their cause...

I recall one article about an Idaho boy who killed his buff with a 45-70 and everyone was jumping for joy, but if you read the article carefully you realize he shot that buff many times over quite a distance and called it good! I don't see it that way, if that buff had come the opposite distance our boy would have been fertilizer...

Will these guns kill dangerous game, I am sure they will and they have, but Finn Aagard tells of a kid he knew that killed a buffalo with a 22 Hornet, Eskimos kill Polar Bear with the 222, and much game has been laid low with spears and bows..It can be done, and I see these things as stunts..I have performed such stunts in my lifetime but I don't claim the 7x57, 308, 8x57 are Buffalo guns, not by a long shot..

I relate this post only as an opposite opinnion, but thats what makes a horserace, dog fight or who likes blonds! .

Steve1,
Converting a Win or Browning Mod 95 lever gun to a 9.3x62 is a snap and it has been done on more than a few ocassions..that is a proper minimum buffalo gun IMO with a handload of a 320 gr. Woodleigh at 2400 FPS in a 26 inch barrel, in a shorter tube I would opt for the 300 gr. Swift at the same MV...

The best lever action big bore I know of can be had by throating out and modifying the Mod. 95 action to feed the 405 with the bullets set forward in the case..It will duplicate the 450-400-3" in bullet weight and velocity...Judge G who used to post on AR had such a rifle and hunted with Pierre van Tonder, booking through me with that rifle and it was a great Cape buff gun with a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS..I have tried to buy it many times but always a no from the old "yer honor"! Guess I must build my own, but mine will be a carbine, and probably more likely to be my horse back elk rifle, but I would have to add at least one or two buff to its claim to fame..

Ever hear of Sectional Density?...jorge

Ray,

I put third, might have been fourth, shot into a departing buff with a 450gr Noth Fork flat nose solid from my 458wm double rifle. MV = 2220fps. By that shot, the bull about55yds away, heading dead away and down a slight slope. The bullet struck the bull maybe 18" over the root of its tail (looks further in the photo due to foreshortening caused by the lens) and traveled the length of the spine, exited the neck, re-entered the back of the skull and exited the boss.

This bull had been hooked by another bull near his nuts and the wound was magotty. This was the hardest of the bulls I've killed to drop, which I think was the result of his bad temper and "confirms" that once they're wounded and in temper, even if from a non-hunting wound, they can be hard to drop. He dropped at the shot, as would any bull spined.

But that NF was 2220fps, which, btw, isn't max velocity from a 458wm, rather a midlin' load, but it is the max velocity that I can get NF 450's to shoot to regulation. And 2220fps delivers a hell of a lot more performance than 1900fps, contrary to what one poster wrote.

Here is a photo, you can see the blood where the bullet entered, and you can see the exit in the boss to the right of the boss's center as you look at the photo, it shows as a dark spot.:




Also, at the request of a Campfire member, Hawk, I shot several of his ~525gr hard cast bullets at 1500fps MV into the head of the (not small) elephant in the photo below. The loads were intended to match a reasonably loaded 45/70, and specified by Hawk, assembled and chrono'd by me to meet his specs. I took the shots from the front, as if they were frontal brain shots, and the bullets broke but they exited the back of the skull. A softer bullet Hawk wanted me to try disintegrated and failed to penetrate the brain, bte. Here is the ele:



For anyone who wonders about the photos, no need to give me s--t about putting on weight (I'm 45lbs heavier in the second photo and they are but 18mo apart) or being fitter to better hunt eles. In my line of work, I sometimes have to forgo everything in life but work for long stretches... But it pays for my elephant hunts, fot or fit, eh? Hate looking like Lupo though!

JPK

Jorge1
What does SD have to do with my post? confused? I might add that a 405 is .411 bullet and a 450-400 is a .410 and both weigh 400 grs.??

JPK,
Nice buffs, but as far as penetration your scenario does not have much to do with my post in that you did not have to go through the massive hip, hip bones or pelvis to get from point A to B,...You got about what I would expect in the way of penetration, a long ways from full body penetration from stem to stern. The calibers we have today that are legal to hunt with just will not do that on buffalo IMO, short of a freak deal where not much mass is encountered. I won't say its impossible, but the odds are 99.9% it won't happen...

I have a DVD done by Wolfe Tracks and Dave Scovill. He uses a heavy levergun of some kind. The total of shots ran into the several range. The DVD is awful. Don't buy it. I bought it because John Barsness was listed as being in the DVD. He's on for maybe two minutes. The rest is home movies with Dave blasting away.

Ray,

The 450 NF went most of the distance through the spine, and then still punched through the boss, more then enough to run end to end through something so minor as a hip or pelvis (when compared to the boss.) The NF 450's give more than six feet in ele bodies, probably more but they exit or are lost, depending on shot angle. I wouldn't doubt that the would make the whole trip through a buff, at 2220fps.

Run them at 1900fps, and they will not go the distance, imo. FN's love velocity. But they would certainly do the job on a buff. A 450 = SD of .305 in .458", run the same SD in any calibre at the same velocity and you will get the same results.

And don't forget the .458" 525's at 1500fps exited the skull through the ele's brain, and those bullets broke (most pieces found near where the bullets stopped), imagine how much better they would have done if they'd stayed whole.

BTW, I'm no advocate of the 45/70 for any DG, but if it was what was in camp and my rifles were lost, I wouldn't think twice.

BTW, I think Jorge was responding to a poster who compared a 400gr .408", .410" or .411" at ~2000fps with a 400gr .458" at the same velocity.

JPK

steve, converting the Win 1895 seems pretty straightforward. brownbearhunter uses this rifle in 9.3x62, converted and rebored from 30-06 for a back-up when guiding in AK. The main problem as in other heavy calibers in the M1895 is the strength (or lack of it?) of the wood stock at the wrist.

Ray: re-read my post. It wasn't addressed at you...jorge

Brian Pearce did a good article on his trip to Africa with a 300 H&H pre64 and a Marlin 45-70. He did pretty well on buffs and others with the Marlin using Penetrator flat nose solids. Not a buff hunter at all and never been to Africa so I'm a pure novice here. Heck, I never even killed a cow with a single shot 45-70. But the buffs Pearce has with him in the pictures appear to be very dead while he's without a scratch. His narrative confirms my suspicions. Good read but can't remember which issue of Handloader/Rifle/Hunter it was in. Would love to read Brian's direct comments on the issue here of "stunt vs hunt". As a general observation isn't the bagging of a Cape buffalo under any circumstances by a non-resident safarier using any weapon somewhat of a stunt? You know, staring danger in the face and all. I mean, you don't travel all the way to Africa and spend all the money required to bag the beast specifically to improve your health. And they aren't exactly taking over a democratically elected gov't by force or anything. Certainly a stunt I'd love to pull some day though. FWIW

Just wondering what amount of hands on expertise some posters on this thread have with buff themselves. I know or at least I've read enough posts by Ray to believe him about what the norm should be on killing buff, I have only killed two in my entire life one with an 8x68 the other with a .458WM both fell at the shot. Surely other posters here at the Campfire such as Jorge must have stacked rail cars with cape buff to know that a bolt action kills better than a lever action of the same caliber/load. Might be a good idea to list all buffalo kills along with your signature so us less experienced hunters know whom rely on for reference with DG.

edited to add; Hey!! Steve been awhile hope all is well did you get your buff's nut sack onto the barber's wall yet/ Rev.