Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Duplex vs. mil-dot for long range (using turrets)

Getting ready to order my new LR scope. I will be running turrets for elevation correction. I prefer, visually, a duplex. Is there significant benefit to a mil-dot for, I guess, windage adjustments?

Scope is a Conquest, if that matters.

Thanks guys. Really appreciate the help!

How were you planning to correct for windage? If you always dial, might as well get a duplex. If you want to hold for wind (or even think you might want to try in the future), it's much easier to do it precisely with a mildot. That reason alone is enough for me.

I use a duplex with a compensating elevation & Windage turrets. My elevation turret cam from Kenton Ind. and is quite accurate. I have a stock windage turret.

I don't care for Mil-dots, they confuse my eye and I'm quicker with my set up. Mil dot's are very effective, just take a heap of practice to get good with them.

As far as windage goes, I carry the drift tables with me. I have most of them remembered for 5 & 10 mph winds.

Learn the table for the 10 and just divide by 2 for the 5 mph crosswind. I won't shoot at an animal in any wind higher than 10 mph.

Best,

Dee

I prefer the Mildot for the reasons JonA stated, but dont use it that way I spin the turret on the windage side too.

i usually dial elevation and hold for wind, so Mil-dot, TMR, MLR or the likes works best for me. if you can spot your hits, you can measure the correction needed with the Mil scopes, too.

I like mildot (or TMR/MOA etc). Having some index marks makes it easier for me to reference a holdoff. Comes in handy ringing LR steel in wind, etc.

Mildots are needed for fast shots. Dialing is great when you have time, but when "Mr. Big" pops out on a ridge at 400 yards and you know the range because you pre-measured when you set up and made your mental range card to the obvious major terrain features, I would just as soon hold 1.25 mils high and drop him before I lose the shot. Now obviously on an elk wallowing or a deer grazing you have time to play.

Thanks. I have never dialed for windage; just held off. Not saying that's RIGHT... just what I've always done.

I guess, given that, mil-dots make all kinds of sense. Darn it.

I dial everything and have duplex reticules on my conquests.

This gets repeated often, and I suspect it is because people hear it or read it, and think it sounds good, without ever actually testing it. Point in fact, when put on the timer there is very little, if any, time advantage to "holding" rather then "dialing". Though there is a measurable difference in accuracy between them.

Jeff, while Mil-dots are certainly useful in wind hold-offs, it does mean that you are now adjusting with two different measurement systems- MOA for elevation, and MILs for wind. Of course you could also just think of a Mil being 3.5MOA, and use it that way.

FWIW.....

Which, of course, isn't a problem for scopes with matching knobs and reticles. But actually it's not really a problem anyway if he's always going to hold wind--just print the drop in MOA and wind in Mils (or 1/2 mils, etc, depending upon what power reticle is calibrated). It's really only a problem if he wants to hold some of the time and dial some of the time, or dial corrections he measures with the reticle. In any case, if you prefer to hold wind it's better than nothing.

As for speed of elevation correction, I agree for many (or even most) hunting situations dialing is basically as fast. But there are some situations where holding is tons faster--when somebody yells out the range after you're already on the target, or for multiple targets at different distances, the speed of holding with a reticle can't be touched by dialing. Though only the former is really likely in a hunting situation it may be very likely for some who hunt with a buddy with a rangefinder--you can be getting into position and aiming while he does the ranging. The latter is sure fun for showing off though.

Jeff, how have you been holding wind up until now? Estimating inches on the target?

Hi Jon,

I don't want to overstate my "expertise" at this stuff; I'm a noob!

Anyway, I've been holding off based on the size of a known target (steel plates), and from what I see with a sighter or two.

I really like a ranging reticle for general hunting- just for the lack of moving parts. I have a few rifles set up that way, one with a Zeiss RZ-600 and a couple others with B&C's, and I really like how they are kind of locked down and ready to go- out to 500 yards or so.

But for true long range stuff if seems to this noob anyway that turrets are the only way to go.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on that, not worth much but then they didn't cost anyone anything.

IMO, the advantage to holding for wind is the ability to change your hold in a split second based on what you see in the scope and feel on your face. the wind is a dynamic thing and what you dial for may not be correct by the time the shot break.

Jeff,

Actually using a Mildot reticle is not really difficult, but does take some practice. But once you learn how to use Mildot's effectively, you will wonder how you even got along without it.

The real key to success in using Mildots in getting a scope that the reticle matches the turrets, in other words a MIL/MIL system. All early Mildot scopes (and many still today), used a mixed system; Mil reticles, and MOA (really a SMOA) turrets; a MIL/MOA system. These scopes like the Leupold Mk4 M1, required the shooter to perform a calculation under pressure, converting what he was seeing in his reticle then converting it using 1/4" adjustments.

To compound the Mil/MOA problem, most US made variable scopes had the reticle set in the second focal plane (SFP). SFP scopes have some wonderful advantages when you not using a ranging reticle, but they have one big disadvantage when you are using a Mildot system: the Mildots are only accurate at one power setting, usually the highest. So if your 3.5-10 scope has Mildots, and it's a SFP scope, those Mildots will only be accurate at 10x and no other powers.

When you combine a matching MIL reticle and MIL turrets, along with a front focal plane (FFP) variable, now you have a closed system with all elements in sync. A Mil reticle, which is a known standard: A Mil turret that makes adjustments in 0.1 Mils per click (0.36")@ 100 yds, and an FFP reticle that allows you to use your Mildots at any power.

To give you an illustration below is a partial drop chart I use with a 308 Win, 155 gr A-Max @ 2790 FPS, using a MIL/MIL FFP scope: I've rounded my data to keep it simple.

Column 3 Drop Units: 1/10 mil licks
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop
(yd) (mils) (Clicks)
0
50 -0 +1
100 -0 -0
150 -0 -2
200 -1 -5
250 -1 -9
300 -1 -13
350 -2 -17
400 -2 -22
450 -3 -26
500 -3 -32
550 -4 -37
600 -4 -44

As you can see my zero is at 100 yds, and I ran this chart out to 600 yds in 50 yds increments. As you can see my clicks are there if I wish to dial. But in practice, I don't dial anything. If I'm shooting at a known range target, I just select the right mildot under the crosshairs, from 1 to 4. It does not take much memorization to remember which dot to use for what range. If I can't remember, the same info is written on the inside cover of my rear BC cap.

If I'm shooting at an unknown range, I can use the Mildots for range estimation, but I rather just lase it, read the range and then select the correct dot to use.

If I'm shooting at paper or steel over 600 yds, I always dial the correction, as slight errors get magnified at longer ranges. And yes, I have a drop table that goes out to 1000 yds.

And Yes, you can do the same thing with a BDC reticle. But the problem with BDC's is there is no standard. Leupold's are different from Nikon, which is different from Bushnell, and so on. But a Mildot is same from all makers. Some will use hashs instead of dots, but a Mil is a Mil and they all are 3.6" @ 100 yds. Some will have 1/2 Mil hashs, but the major graduations at still the same, 3.6" @ 100 yds.

There are some scope makers that make MOA/MOA scopes, like USO, Nightforce and Wonder Optics. And they are a good system since the turrets and reticle match. But there only problem is no maker uses the same system. USO is different from Nightforce and so on. The is no standard for MOA reticles like there is for Mildot reticles.

Does a hunter really need a Mildot scope? Not really, most of use got by nicely without them. Or you can just get a scope that has a turret of some sort, and just dial your range.

But if your determined enough, and spend some time behind a scope with a MIL/MIL and FFP, you will realize some of the inherent advantages of such a system. A mildot will not magically make you a better shooter, but it will allow you to maximize your shooting skills, your rifles accuracy, and your cartridges potency to it's maximum extent. The limiting factor as always is you the shooter.

Thanks,

Bob

Thank YOU.

As far as the multiple targets deal... Sure, but that's not very relevent in BG hunting.

The easy answer is as has already been stated matching turrets and reticles. Whether they're MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL doesn't really matter (though I prefer MIl/MIL). Unfortunately that is just now becoming popular with manufacturers and it is still hard to find a good scope with matched adjustments under a grand. Matter of fact I can only think of one candidate....



Jeff, you said you have just been holding off by what you see on the plate and a spotter or two? Does that mean your not making a wind call and adjusting for it on your first shot?

Charles,

In all honesty, I've been so flummoxed by winds up where I have my plates set up that I have kind of given up on attempting a wind call on the first shot... I just hold dead on and observe where the first one hits or misses and then go from there. Obviously, not gonna fly in any kind of a hunting situation!

The winds are just squirrely up there. For a while I had ribbons hanging at various points. Some days, it'd be blowing one direction where I was, then another direction at 300 yards, and another still at 500 yards. So, it's just a poor choice of a spot in that regard. I haven't been able to find anything better, though.

Some days it's pretty still though, and then it's great. This is my spot:

I hear you, but you can't give up on it. Just going out there without trying to read the wind, and walking them in, isn't doing you any good. Do you have a spotting scope? Do you shoot competition or have you been to a LR class?

The ONLY way to shoot Lr is being able to make wind calls. If you don't you're just pissing up the rope....

I know it. I've said all along, what seperates the men from the boys at this LR stuff is FIRST SHOT hits. I'm one of the boys at this point.

When I get the new scope on my Sendero, I plan on making a big push to get better at that. Already got the powder, brass, primers, and bullets to do so (which, with the component shortage, was no small trick in itself!)... hopefully, getting the new scope next week.