Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Duplex vs. mil-dot for long range (using turrets)

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The easy answer is as has already been stated matching turrets and reticles. Whether they're MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL doesn't really matter (though I prefer MIl/MIL). Unfortunately that is just now becoming popular with manufacturers and it is still hard to find a good scope with matched adjustments under a grand. Matter of fact I can only think of one candidate....
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Charles A.

There are more MIL/MIL FFP scopes under a grand than you think. Just of the top of my head:

IOR 2.5-10x42MM MIL/MIL FFP Illum. MP8 Reticle $899.00 from Liberty Optics.

SWFA SS 3-9x42MM MIL/MIL FFP $599.00 From SWFA

Falcon Menace:

4-14x44MM MIL/MIL FFP $323.00
4-18x50MM MIL/MIL FFP $323.00
5-25X50MM MIL/MIL FFP $473.00
5-25x56MM MIL/MIL FFP $473.00

Fixed Falcons:
7.5x50mm MIL/MIL $253.00

All Falcon prices are from Optics Warehouse, UK

Gen 3 Wonder Optics are MOA/MOA all under $400.
Gen 4 Wonder Optics will be released later this month, MIL/MIL FFP's under $450.00 from Wonder Optics

That's a lot more than one brand, and one scope. I am currently using a Falcon 7.5x50MM, and a SWFA SS 3-9x42MM, both have MIL/MIL adjustments, and the SWFA is FFP.

Bob

I about those, but the only on I would personally use is the SS. To many IOR's have problems, and I don't trust the Falcons or WO.

That must be some kind of code yer speakin' feller...Wo's and IOR's.

I'm tellin' the gubment about you!

That kind of wind is what will teach you to shoot LR and be able to determine a "net wind value". Those ribbons are a great tool!

When is Leupold going to come out with a good MOA reticle? Some light 2 MOA hash marks would be dandy for holding wind. It doesn't have to be FFP.

Ditto! I've posed that question to them a few times over the past couple of years. I wish that is was at least something they would do in their custom shop.

What they need to come out with is a scope that tracks consistently, is FFP and adjusts in .1MRAD. Coupled with a Gen2 Mildot reticle.

For those who haven't used such a scope it makes it so easy....

If the glass is going to be a second focal plane reticle I would just as soon have a duplex. I think the mildot or other ranging reticles really only show their full value when they can be used at any magnification.

If I had to make choices I would take flawless repeatable tracking, first focal plane reticle and matching reticle/adjustments in that order. I know it sounds unconventional but I would rather take all three of those options over spectacular glass and 99% light transmission.

If I was shooting static target competition, something like f-class, my needs would run towards tracking and spectacular glass as first priorities. As it is, in hunting and tactical style matches I dont think I have ever dropped a point due to lower light transmission or not having perfect clarity from edge to edge. Good example was a match last week. Hit three 8-10" gongs at 550yards and transitioned to a 6" stop plate at 330yards. I went 4 for 4 in 20seconds. I had my scope (4x14 Falcon) set about 12 power because the field of view was optimum for the stage. I used hold overs on the reticle and never touched a dial. Being FFP I never had to double check the magnification to make sure my reticle was accurate, just hold and shoot. I was beaten on the stage by a guy running a $2000 USO scope (16 seconds)but he was just on fire that day.

I prefer to dial for distance most of the time but I like the fact I can use holdovers at a moments notice.

I use both systems too. As a hunter i'm a reticle guy mostly, but then one of my main prairie dog rigs is an XP-100 handgun 17 Fireball with a 6-18x Nikon Buckmasters mil-dot scope. I just use turret for vertical and reticle for windage. That optic is calibated for 12x for the milliradian subtension to be correct. I don't care about that tho. I always use this optic at max power where the mil-dot is now 2.4 inch per hundred yds. The sweet part about the 2nd FP MD optic where the milliradian is calcd. for a lower power is that as u increase mag. the dot diameters still maintain the same relative subtension to the dot to dot subtension (0.2 of whatever the dot to dot subtension is). So if the windage is calcd. at 1.9 u still aim at the edge of the 2nd dot. This allows for a more accurate system of interpolating between dots when the subtension is smaller, besides being more accurate for rangefinding purposes, if 1 elected to use it as such. My buddies and i have made some 1st-shot connections out to ~500 yds. using the lowly 25 gr. Horn. HP at 3400 out of this rig in some winds close to 10 mph. out on the flat prairie.

I always run reticle for windage for hunting purposes (to ~ 600 yds.) regardless of what reticle i use, ALWAYS CALCD. from simple plex to Ballistic Plex. This same rig wears a 4-12x Burris Mini during coyote fur season with a plex reticle that has a subtension of 2.7 IPHY. I have made 1 1st-shot reticle calculated connection with this rig in a 10 mph wind to 300 yds. (the only 1 attempted). This system is really only good to about 300 yds. on coyotes though which allows me to get away with a calcd. small-subtension system using a plex reticle. But a 1-stadia subtension system like the plex can be effectively applied to about 2x it's subtension. That 1 calcd. shot called for 1.3 of the 2.7 IPHY subtension and i could effectively interpolate that with the plex reticle.

I'm now using a 6.5-20x Leup. FFP with Darrell Holland's Ultimate Mil Reticle on a 6.5 WSM XP-100 handgun. I've never even noticed the FFP system. I always use it set at the highest power for LR shots anyway. The 1st LR shot out of the rig at a game animal was a 435-yd. stalked sleeping coyote. Dope called for 1.5 mil subtension units with a 200-yd. zero (i think) and it was almost dead on impact.

I will admit 1 thing about 1st vs. 2nd FP. Before i fully figured the system out i did miss more than 1 longer range shot when power was not set right trying to use the reticle. It was a hard-knocks education that's for sure.

Well, Jeff I think you are begining to figure out what the big problem with long range hunting is - wind !
If you are hunting stuff on the flats, like ground squirrels and maybe Pronghorn, fine. You can take cues from the bending grass, etc.
But in the mountains, that doesn't work much of the time. Not only is it tough to make that first shot hit, the darn wind changes both direction and velocity in the wink of an eye.
I like to dial my range if I have time and hold off for wind. I also prefer to range my target with my reticle, not fiddle around with a LRF. Lots of experience has shown me that I may well not have the time.
No question the Mil-dot offers lots of options. Alot more than the Duplex. But the duplex offers you a reticle that will hold up much better in bad light. This, I suspect is why the Leupold B&C reticle is made as bold as it is. Not like the Varmit Hunter reticle.
No doubt about it, long range shooting is lots of fun. But it's practical application in many big game applications is very questionable in my book. Thanks to that unpredictable, unreliable wind. E

There seem to be guys that can do it- but I'm with you, so far nothing I've seen from myself would indicate that I personally have any business shooting at a game animal at true "long range"....

Give me a sighter and I'm deadly though!

I enjoy shooting long range targets, gongs, water filled bottles, varmints, etc. Yet when hunting deer, I truly enjoy it more the closer they are, the faster my heart beats. I guess I feel more like a hunter, knowing I may get spotted before I get a good shot off. The FUN factor if you will rises dramatically for me when I can see them really well with the naked eye.

In the end, I guess we all must weigh the odds/risks of wounding an animal when conditions are stretching our limits, whether distance, wind, etc. before we let one fly.

As practice time at the range increases so the odds go down that we mess up when it really counts.

Yeah, agreed and well-said.

I found out last year I'm capable of flubbing a 40-yard shot (with mitigating circumstances). So, I make no assumption of LR hunting prowess!

But the practicing is so damn much fun, it's worth it right there. And as a side bonus, at least for me, practicing at longer ranges has made (say) a 300-yard shot pretty simple.

hmmmm 300 simple.... but flub at 40 yards..... just kidding with you

Yep! Screwed the pooch on that one. Slippery slope, sidehill, old boots... [bleep] happens.

Got him right through the rear shoulder, though.

Even the world's best make a mistake once in a while

Wonder if it costs 'em as much MEAT as it cost me!

Get caught w/ your pants down? Never happened to me, yet, but a buddy of mine did once while in Tx, he grabbed his gun and got the deer w/o pulling them back up. Just kidding about your situation Jeff.

Seriously, I watched a pro golfer miss a short put, and kid you not, he made a hole in one the next round at something like 150-200 yds.....it happens. I am no golfer, but Murphy's law can happen in most anything.

I console myself with the fact that I fired (3) shots at game last year. Results were a nice buck, and two elk! So it all worked out.

I got my big 6.5-20 Conquest by the way. I put 50 rounds through it yesterday. I'll write up a proper review once I'm sure what I'm seeing.