Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Wolves only kill what they can eat?

I don't think you know my "beliefs." You are assuming far too much and being a real prick about it.



I agree. See what I mean about my beliefs?



Ain't gonna happen.



I was paid by those funds for 20 some years.



Ain't gonna happen. But I understand why a person with those fears can be so pissed. Place it on the radical wolf preservationists, not hunters like me.



Then stop being such a prick.

It is just as naive to say that predators will not eliminate a prey species as it is to say that predators will eliminate a prey species.

You know Dpole, I don't mind you quoting me, but please, make sure you quote accordingly from my posts and not just want you decide to pick and choose from my posting(s).

And yes, possibly, we have somewhat of a common thread as to the wolf thing. I painfully ask that we can continue this type of banter...at least for the life of the wolf as we may or may not KNOW it currently.

And if you call me a prick again I will retort back to being a prick. As I mentioned in one of my posts I'm done with slinging the poo-poo. Should you care to participate in such manner, well, I absolutely refuse to discuss things further with you.

You mentioned previously, and you assumed, that I was a transplant here to the Western states, may I dare ask what state you call home?

P.S. Here's the the true test of your beliefs and possibly convincing the majority of posters on this wolf topic.......have you purchased your wolf tag yet?????

LOL Dpole you're losing the war the wolves are going down now or many more later take your pick.

Dpole, you are pretty skilled at arguing, but as I implied before, a little critical thinking would do you a lot of good.

Start with the realization that the OFFICIAL position is the Disney Syndrome. Any researcher on this subject is fully, wholly dependent for their research grants, job opportunities and career advancement on OFFICIAL money sources -- i.e. the OFFICIAL position. Be that Fed or anti money -- it all comes with the OFFICIAL expectation. Anything outside the accepted paradigm will cost any researcher his or her career. So, individuals do what makes sense: hold hands, sing kum-ba-ya at work and go home to raise their kids. Can't blame them; but can't believe their "professional" results, either.

There are individuals running around the States F&G departments that could do good, independent research, but there is no money to support them, as the states are spending a fortune to deal with the woofs without getting any support for it.

Now, back to the "fear of humans" issue. Every population has natural variation. Any farmer will tell you that any group of animals has a range of individuals, from those that love people to those that never are comfortable around people. Horses, cows, goats, sheep, cats, dogs. Yes, woofs, too. Cull the variation towards the human friendly side, and you are left with those that are less trusting and confident. In a few generations, we're going to have a population that is naturally far more skittisch. Push it for a large number of generations and you can "create" a population that is so paranoid it can't properly function in populated areas.

The fundamental point of the wolf management debate is lost in the debate, as it always is with any "poster" species. Game management is about managing the species, not the individual. The Alpha female has no value, more or less than any other individual. Take one out, another is created. Wolf management should not be viewed as a separate management strategy; it is properly performed as part of ALL wildlife management. We have to manage the species, as we manage all wildlife species. Within the constraints of available resources, and taking into account the value of the resource for hunters.

Personally, I am convinced that hunting wolves WILL disrupt pack behaviors, and WILL actually result in more pups being born. Of course, that is the result of almost ALL the wildlife management in the US. There will be more individuals to populate the available habitat. That's ok. I still have a bunch of primers and brass... JMO, Dutch.

Stop it. After your behavior here, your bragging that you illegally killed wolves the past couple years, your threat to vandalize my property, and on and on, and on.... Now you're gonna get all huffy about me telling you are acting like a prick. give me a break. After all you wrote : "if you call me a prick again I will retort back to being a prick." You say you "will "retort" back to being a prick." You admit you were being a prick. I said you were being a prick. My statement was true, per your own admission.



I "mentioned" no such thing. Get your facts straight. I live near Grand Marais, Mn, where ther have always been wolves. They are on the Endangered Species list, listed as threatened now, so when you bring that gut pile to leave on my steps, you should be able to prove it came from some other place. If I'm home, I'll be happy to "hold" you for collection by the sheriff.



I don't need or care to "convince" you of anything. You will ignore it anyway. I've written pages about how I can't friggin wait to hunt wolves in the lower 48. That is the main reason I want wise state management, with well-regulated hunting seasons. I've written miles on how I want to help western states thin the wolf pops. I've written dozens of times that I think wolves should be in Jellystone, but that the rest should be up to the states. I don't care how many wolves Montana or Idaho decide to have. Its their decision. I just want hunting seasons so I can hunt! I'm not ready to buy a tag in Idaho or Montana because the season is structured in a way that I would not enjoy. I'll be waiting for a more trophy oriented offer.
But A-holes like you continue to show up and accuse me of being "green" and whatever other names you want to use. You invent strawmen to torment. You are haters, looking for a "greenie" to hate.
I could not care less how you present yourself on this forum. All I see is a jackass so far; one without a grasp of the facts or the morality to discuss a subject fairly. I say go ahead and "retort" back to your prickage self. I can more easily ignore you.

Its easy to argue well, when you have the facts on your side and you are presenting the argument honestly.



You and I must disagree on what critical thinking is. I'm an extreme critical thinker, as should be obvious in my posts. In fact, I'm constantly being accused of being too critical by others.



Critically speaking, you are way off base. Your Disney Syndrome description of wildlife agencies is silly. They only do what the Governor tells them, at least we do (I did) in Minnesota. You can't teach me much about how state agencies work. I lived it every day 'till I retired. The state employees I knew didn't roll over as easily as you might think. In public, they do and say what they're told (they are employees of the governor and follow his direction, as they should), but intra-agency discussions are far from gentle.



What's yer point? My original premise was not exclusive to all other behavioral pressures. More than one can be true.



You're fairly close.



So you agree with me and that evil 'greenie" DOW woman. You coulda just said that! Does that mean that you were not thinking critically, by your definition?



Lost ya there. Not all wildlife has the family structure that wolves do.

NO it isn't. But of course, I didn't write that. You are making up crap again. It is "naive" to "say" what you wrote.

Actually the Montana Trappers Ass. went to Helena and testified to try and get trapping on the management agenda. Nice try. Also the anti's could get a wolf pic from anywhere. In Montana Wolves are being legally trapped every week. Another false post about wolves.

Are you hunting bears in the summer? You don't hunt lions so N/A? They kill the same game wolves do. Just because you don't hunt them then you don't care? What about the Grizzly bear? You can't hunt him either, but he kills more elk calves in the spring than wolves. We have over 1300 Griz in Montana, killing elk. Do they have a right to those elk? Just as many Griz in just Montana, as wolves in both states. That's counted numbers.
I have a buddy that runs cattle in the Big Hole Valley. He has more cattle killed by bears than wolves. Sorry you were born after 1962, rules are rules. No elk hunting for you.

Yep, I hunt bears in the summer, as in right now as the season just opened here in Idaho. And according to the calender, summer doesn't end until September 21st....it's been that way for many years now. Matter of fact I went bear hunting yesterday, didn't harvest I'm sorry to say. The only reason I'm not still hunting is because I'm sitting at this damn computer hitting the refresh button every 5 minutes to get the latest from the Montana news.
I would love to hunt lions. As a matter of fact the Sportsman Package I buy every year includes a lion tag, but I have no hounds so I don't do it. Although I would shoot one if giving the opportunity. Grizzly bear? Well I've not read anywhere that they kill more calves in the spring than wolves. There isn't many Grizz here, except the far north/east and east part of the state. I do have to admit I have some doubts about what you stated, but I can't prove it either. I would certainly welcome the opportunity to read about actual fact should you care to share it.
And if the Grizz were ever allowed to be hunted, I'm not prejudice, I'll hunt them as well. I am fairly confident that that won't happen though. As far as the 1962 year, I'll use my age in wolf years and that will surely put me way before 1962....oh wait, not sure if I want to use that multiplying factor, I would be dead.
Ya know 4100fps, your recent post to me was a lot easier to appreciate and read...thanks for being civil.
I'm still working on Dpole, he seems to be a bit bigger of a NUT to crack.

That's like trying to piss a walnut ain't going to happen. Once a prick always a prick.

No, no, I'm the prick...he has yet to graduate to that plateau.

Why do you guys argue with DPole, he is just trolling and his posts are nonsence. He is a troll having fun..He is also uninformed and ignorant and is not as well read as he would lead you to believe..I am betting he looks just like his picture! :):)

w
Wolves have almost 2.5 litters of 4 to 8 each year..Deer and elk have twins of which one usually survives..Do the math and its apparant that wolves will proliferate at an excelled pace over other game animals, the coyote has proven that over the years..If the wolf is not controled then all other prey will be eaten and the wolves will and allready have started killing livestock, nothing new about that and even the antis know that. What they don't know is the wolf, like in the past will create so many problems that he too will perish in time as he won't have anything to eat but poisoned game animals and cyanide guns.. The Game Depts. are calling for the shooting of wolves in Montana, and Idaho, already selling wolf tags and its being challanged of course..Time will tell.

I believe that the current packs had no problems forming in this way. It has happened quickly.

I might as well join in on this one.

I worked for the US Fish and Wildlife in the mid 90's as apart of a study on the "Effects of prescribed burns on Large Ungulates Winter Range" in the Beartooths of Montana mainly. It was during the reintroduction of the first Yellowstone wolves and their was alot of debate. A couple points that we should consider. First, is that this was a deliberate way to control game populations with other means than hunting. Second, the wolves of Canada and Northern Minnesota were apart of a equilibrium in that environment. The Northern Rocky Mountians were in a state of equilibrium before the wolves. The only places that were in any state of flux from this were vast area of refuge such as Yellowstane, thus the need for supplemental feedings on the National Elk Refuge outside of Jackson for winter range. In the Northern Boreal forests all the game is adapted to this environment, not always so in the Northern Rocky mountians. Elk were primarily a plains mammal. Now they are being driven back down onto the plains and agriculture ground of the floodplains due to wolf predation. We are seeing a lack of game in its historical ranges (mountians) and more movement to lower elivations and agricultural ground. Lastly, most of the winter range in the Beartooths where our study was located, is being used by 70% fewer large ungulates. The game numbers may be on a pendulum but we are going to see many more growing pains in the future before an equilibrium between wolves and game populations is established again.

dpole, I don't mean to discredit you but we can compare the wolves of Boreal Forests to those of the Northern rockies even though that is were the Yellowstone wolves originated from.

In my opinion and most of the biologists in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho I still am in contact with, the reintoductions were irresponsible, careless and poor use of resources.

Again, just my opinions.

ddj

I can't figure out if you just like reading your own posts or you actually think you will change the way 99.9% of the people on this site feel about wolves.Your not gonna pull and convert people to the Dpole greenie train so try another forum.

There actually been quite a few studies supporting this.

Elk calf study

My question's that asked how you feel about other predators that prey on elk show you don't hold animosity towards them. Why so much anger felt for the wolf? He's no more the killer that some of those others. A Grizzly will get in a pen with sheep and play pac man. He won't eat any. Got to love them for that though.

I think possibly that my animosity towards them, (wolves), is very simple to explain. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. To further elaborate, there are way many more articles, pictures, studies, etc...that bring the wolf into the spotlight than the grizz example. I don't dispute what you said although I've not read your link. I'm convinced all this back and fourth hate/love for wolves is so red hot right now is really simple, because the wolves have shown to impact big game herds and the biggest reason would be because they have or potentially can become huntable. If Grizzly's ever get to the media/hunter/anti-hunter levels the wolves currently are experiencing, this whole fiasco will repeat itself but much more dramatic.

Would you concur?

You have a good point about pictures coming from anywhere. I wouldn't doubt the greenies try to pull that one. I can't speak for the MTA on their official position, but every Trappers Assoc member (easily 25 or so)I have talked to has told me they are not pushing for a season. If the Assoc does push for one they will be pissing a lot of their members off. This is NOT a lie.