Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Hell I was there and Unrepentant Sinner

Our friends Roy and Ann honeymooned at the Grand Canyon. Carol Anne and I hadn't been there then.

"Oh, tell us about the Grand Canyon!" Carol Anne said.

" � just a big hole in the ground,"Ann scoffed.

But her eyes went wide when she enthusiastically reported that Jack and Jackie Kennedy had been there just a week before.

De gustibus non disputandum est.

And at least equally pertinent to this thread: De mortuis nil nisi bonum.

--Bob

True enough, but it reminded me of when I was allowed to stay up at night as a boy, listening to my elders speak of old hunting tales and other wonderful things yet unknown to me.

Nothing wrong with a good narrative. Only an editor that truly understands the topic, lends something to the mix. Apologies to the editors here. ;O)

Note to readers of rambles:

Kieth spent a good deal of time in rambling conversations with old timers from the American West -- and thereby we are the recipients of an oral history of firearms usage and events that would be pretty much even more obscure,if not totally lost.

His boyhood, the places he grew up, and men with whom he associated informed his later writing, in facts and in overall shooting philosophy. An example would be his actual familiarity with BP buffalo rifles [long before the modern version of the sport was re-discovered]. Anyone who dinkered around with them, would be very familiar with lead slug trajectories out to extended ranges. Same as lobbing a pistol bullet way out yonder in front of s straying herd animal, to turn it back in.

Could one read some element of folk tales or brags into Keith? If one was so inclined, I suppose you could doubt about anything. But the guy never came across to me as any more than the product of his time and place. He was a kid raised in an outdoor working world which was so much different from most modern folks concept of reality, that I pretty much ascribe the doubters' questions to cultural and historical ignorance.

I do think, that indeed, you had to be there, either in fact, or in the spirit of open minded inquiry.

Just such a long range discussion was recently initiated over on the Frontier sixshooter Community Bulletin Board, where the pistol shooting likes of Taffin, Jurras and others with nom de plumes peg their hats. Pretty classic answers for those who never have studied the art of 'if you can see it, you can hit it."

Oh, and it would possibly be useful to read the discussion before commenting, thank you.

...and a thanks to Ken Howell for a LIFE WORK of courteous and knowledgeable magnitude.

"That's ridiculous! Impossible! Nobody can shoot a handgun like that!" a gun-writer friend said to me years ago about Elmer's long-range skill with a sixgun.

"Why, that makes remarkable good sense!" he exclaimed when I explained to him how Elmer, McGivern � and many others, including KEH � did it with some regularity.

Knowledge trumps ignorance.

'Pert near every time.

Some years ago my huntin' bud killed a bedded doe @ 395 yards, with a M700 6mm Rem. and 95gr Btip. One shot to the punkin, from a bipod.

When he later offered that doe to some hunters who'd been skunked on opening day and were preparing to head home to the city, empty handed, one got noisy about the shot being nothing but dumb luck.

The conversation was starting to get ugly, when the farmer who they were staying with, mentioned that he'd seen us thump woodchucks at greater distances than that and figured if a guy could consistantly hit woodchucks at a fair distance, then a deer's head ought not offer too much of a challenge for a shooter.

Up to that time, that was the most I'd ever heard that farmer speak, as he was (and is), a man of few words.

In the late 1940s, Pennsylvania Game News carried a blurb about a warden who saw a couple come out of the woods at sunrise, with a deer on each front bumper. He stopped 'em.

Each deer had a single small-caliber hole in its face. The warden was certain that they'd been jsck-lighting before legal shooting hours. Both assured him that that wasn't the case.

He was also convinced that the man had shot both deer. The lady insisted that she'd shot the deer that bore her tag. The warden got sarcastic and focused his ridicule on her. He walked into the woods and hung his watch on a limb.

"Now, if you're such a good shot, hit my watch."

"I don't want to ruin your watch."

The warden almost danced with glee.

"You can't hit it! "You can't hit it! "You know you can't hit it!"

He made her mad. She threw her rifle up and snapped-off a shot. The watch wrapped its chain around the limb. Little wheels and springs flew out the back.

Then he learned that they were exhibition shooters with Winchester or Remington.

Some of my most memorial times in 60 years of hunting have been in camps listening to experienced hunters tell stories. I would believe our ancient ancestors squatted around fires & talked about the dinosaurs & Woolly Mammoths they had slain. Probably some of these ancient hunters gained fame & were discussed like we do Elmer & Jack. Great stuff these stories. Thanks to those that shared. I especially liked Elmer's story about being a kid working all summer in the desert, finally getting paid, & after some local cowboy toasted everyone in the bar to drinks at Elmer's expense, put a six gun to the cowboys head.

I believe you are referring to Lt. Brophy, who I always assumed to be Bill Brophy. Your comments lead me to believe that assumption is correct.

You have mentioned Charlie O'Neil several times in your posts. I would like to know a bit more about this gentleman. Is there a biography available?

okay, "se vis pacem, parabellum" is the extent of my Latin, you two showoffs, and the online Latin to English translations made no sense in either case of the above quotes. one of you want to translate them for us gearheads?

per Wikipedia.....

"De gustibus non est disputandum" = "There is no accounting for taste."

"De mortuis nil nisi bonum" = "Of the dead, speak no evil."

cool, learned three things today, the two quotes and that Wiki translates

funny I Googled Latin to English translations, went to a translator site, and it mangled both phrases!

Regrettably, no one � as far as I lnow � has written much sbout Charlie. A shame. His life would make good reading.

He retired from one of the Twin Cities (MN} PDs with a mob contract on him. (He'd reduced a bunch of their goons to coffin-filler and put a bunch more behind long-term bars and high walls.}

Some day when I feel garrulous snd more peppy than I feel right now, I'll have to compile a bunch of Charlie O'Neil anecdotes. He was a most interesting good friend for a long time. (I'll start making notes right away, as the memories trickle back.)

I'll be looking forward to reading your recollections. By the way, Welcome Back.

From what I understand, and could be wrong, he didn't elevate the front sight above his target but instead lowered the rear sight. Legend has it that he would make slight file cuts on the front sight backside and then later have the small notch filled with gold or some other material that was easy to see. He knew what distance each mark represented but still had to be very good at estimating the range, an art that is fast becoming obsolete as nearly everybody now days relies on their rangefinder.

Right!

I've often lowered the rear sight so far that all of the front sight showed above the rear sight. As long as it's not too far above the rear sight, keeping it centered is no problem.

The base of the blade is a good reference. I've some times held it at the bottom of the notch, some times across the top, some times just a smidge above it. (Easier to DO than to DESCRIBE)

Usually, I just eye-balled a quarter, a third, half, three quarters (etc) of the blade above the notch. Elmer's cross-wires � gold or silver wire peened into narrow horizontal jeweler's-saw cuts in the back side of his front sight � would help, I suppose, but aren't necessary. (Elmer didn't put 'em on all his sixguns, and didn't seem to need 'em.)

Once you get the hang of this, you can surprise yourself.

I've already jotted-down notes for fifteen to twenty anecdotes about Charlie � may think of more as more memories bubble up out of the ooze.

I just re-read HIWT and use my Sixguns for reference-It's an enscribed copy and the binding has turned loose of a lot of the pages so, it's tedious for pleasure reading. His other books were full of Keith stories too. Even "Shotguns" that comes from the time of card wad columns is entertaining.


Might have been "Elmer's Little Mortar" by Askins, I think. Askins did say that the .44 would drop the height of a two story wigwam at that range. Keith probably did make the shot. He didn't claim to have hit the deer every time and the only reason he was shooting at it at that distance was that it was wounded by his hunting companion.

Border Patrol story=the border patrolman who did the shooting is not named but this is the story that has circulated about Jordon off and on for the last 50 years:

John A. Rector
Date of Birth: August 23, 1898

Began at INS: March 13, 1928


TITLE: Patrol Inspector


Date Died: October 16, 1956


DETAILS: At approximately 11:30 a.m., October 16, 1956, Patrol Inspector John A. Rector was accidentally shot by the firing of a .357 Magnum revolver by a fellow officer. The mishap occurred at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters where two officers were discussing various guns and their limitations and advantages. During the course of the conversation, the .357 Magnum was unloaded, examined, then reloaded, and placed in a desk drawer. The two officers then examined a .22 revolver and soon the discussion returned to the .357 Magnum. At this point one of the officers reached into the desk drawer, picked up the pistol, and without realizing that it had been reloaded, pulled the trigger.The bullet passed through a partition wall into Patrol Inspector Rector's office where it struck him in the left jaw and ranged up through his head. Upon arrival of an ambulance and a doctor, Patrol Inspector Rector was removed to the Paradise Valley Hospital in National City. Two neurosurgeons from San Diego were called; however, nothing could be done for Inspector Rector. He died at approximately 2:00 p.m. the same day.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_s...l/alpha_listing_agents/q_z/rector_ja.xml

I don't know the dates of Bill's duty assignment in Mobile, Alabama, but according to the blurb for a 1950s The American Rifleman cover, Bill was stationed in Mobile. My uncle (U S Marshal in Mobile) knew him there.

Bill signed my first copy of No Second Place Winner
"Any friend of Elmer Keith and nephew of Stan Fountain is automatcally a friend of
Bill Jordan"

That was before we met person-to-person.

I have spent much of my life reading OConnor and Keith. I can tell you that they both had particular strengths. I was too young to meet them. I have conversed with many of the old time guides who guided for them. I think the most interesting conversation was with Don Dehart who guided both after mountain grizzlies.

Dehart who was in his 80s told me that both gents were extremely good shots. Elmer loved Deharts operation and helped even as he was an older hunter. He relished every element of hunting. He shot a large dall ram on a grizzly hunt at long range and was tickled as a school child.

OConnor was less pleasant for Dehart to work with complained much of the time. He was a little too fond of booze. He did a great job of killing a grizzly. He was less than a perfect client but he could shoot well. Dehart was worried about Jack hunting grizzly with a 270 but he was impressed with OConnors skill.

Sincerely,
Thomas