Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa How does it feel?

I mean to have more money then sense? I just watched Craig Boddington and Ivan Carter take some old, out of shape man on an Elephant hunt. They drove around the place they were hunting (?) got out of the vehicle walked a couple hundred yards and looked at Elephants. When they finally found the one they wanted, they walked right up to it and shot. So how does that feel? It was not sporting at all. The hunter did not do anything. He did not learn the animal, the way to hunt him, his habits, terrain, nothing. I am sure he didn�t gut, Skin or haul out meat. He just had a lot of money to go and shoot an unsuspecting animal. SO how does that feel? I�ve never been on a guided hunt and this one looked the worst of all of them. I know, I know, you guys are all hurt now and I�m a D�k. But really on a guided hunt all you have to do is show up and shoot straight. You might have to learn a little anatomy of the animal but, the shows I have watched the guide is right there telling you what, when and where to shoot. I will give you that plains game is a little more sporting because the animal doesn�t stand there and let you shoot them but that Elephant did. So the question stands?

The thing with hunting videos is that they don't show the long walks and unsuccessful stalks etc because no-one wants to watch that stuff. Just because it looks like it was an easy hunt doesn't mean it was....... and I can tell you now that very few dangerous game hunts (when conducted properly) are easy and if Craig and Ivan were involved, you can bet your life the hunt was most certainly conducted properly.

You admit that you've never been on a guided hunt. That almost certainly means you've never hunted Africa. Without meaning to insult you in any way and with all due respect, my advice would be that if you haven't experienced it, you don't have anything on which to arrive at an informed opinion and therefore you should perhaps not be too critical.

As for the client not knowing anything about the animal. I wonder how you know that? Admittedly, you could be right but you could equally be very wrong. I personally encourage people to try to learn as much as possible about the species before they hunt it and indeed one of my more unpopular comments about Elephant hunting is that any fool can shoot an Elephant and many fools do.

Some take my advice and spend considerable time researching the species asnd their social structures etc, but some don't and at the end of the day it's their money that pays for their safari and their choice.

I hope my comments have informed and not offended.

Sir, you have not offended me in any way. But I doubt there were any long walks as they said at the beginning of the show that they hunt there by driving around in a vehicle looking for the elephants. Mr Carter even said that he built a special rack on the vehicle so his tracker could spot the bulls above the vegetation. I have not been to Africa or any other place on a guided hunt and there for I draw my experience from what I read and what I see and by the way so do the anti's. But my question still stands. Look, lets put it a different way. When I go hunting I have to pick a place, scout that place, find the game, compete with other hunters and the animal, weather ext. It is a hard won trophy. If you pay someone else to do that for you well? It looks to me that you are probably a Guide or PH and you make a living off of people who pay you to do the work and I don't mean to take money out of your pocket. I'm just don't think it is a hard won trophy.
D

I don't know what video we're talking about but the usual way to hunt Elephant is to drive the area to look for suitable animals OR spoor....... usually what you find is spoor and you then walk on it and believe me Elephants (and Buffalo) can cover an awful lot of ground very quickly and most walks after these species are very long indeed. Sure, occasionally you get lucky but not very often.

As for the rack to elevate the trackers so someone can see over the long grass, I'd say that's a good idea.

Regarding your last comment: there's lots of reasons most African countries require overseas hunters to use a Professional Hunter and all of them are very good reasons, but if you don't want to use a PH and think you can do it on your own, you could always go hunt one of the few countries that allow unaccompanied hunts. If you do that, you may well find yourself in deep trouble if you don't know what exactly what you're doing, but hey, just like that client you criticised, it's your money and your choice....... and indeed, your life to with as you will.

"The excellent is the enemy of the good."

jim

DBone,



What the antis think is irrelivant. They couldn't care less about facts.



I'd bet a dime to a doughnut the hunter doesn't care what you think.

Nothing like being able to pass judgement on a sample of one...

The video you speak of may very well have not been a hard won trophy...you'll see the spectrum on those "hunting" shows...

But the old rule of thumb for elephant hunting is you'll walk a mile for every pound of ivory you extract from the bush...

You may notice also that its the old geezers with more money than sense that often bag the young gorgeous babes too...and that sure doesn't seem fair either...

Ingwe

The PHs in Africa are very good at accommodating old and out of shape hunters. Some become old and out of shape through no fault of their own. A short walk could be challenging for an old guy. When you become old or lose a leg, they'll help you to.

As for skinning and gutting the elephant; if you ever kill one and want to do that, I'm sure they'll let you.

My biggest criticism of the hunting show technique is the automatic "collaboration" and backup shot by the PH when hunting dangerous game. So sorry, but if I'm hunting, barring a truly life threatening situation, I want to do all the shooting with no automatic backup. If that's the way they insist on doing it, I'll not consider hunting with them.

Dbone,

No experience with Africa; in fact, no experience formally as a guide or even as a guided hunter. IOW, probably about level with you. However, I have been around the scene for awhile. This is what I've observed. There are hunters and then there are people who pay to hunt (or to say they did). The guide's job can be simply one of providing a bit of expertise, outfitting the hunt, and making the paperwork legal, or it can be a virtual babysitting ordeal. Guiding a person who knows what they are doing or even simply one who has experience from which to extrapolate can be fairly simple, a good job for the guide; a great client. Then there are those who really have no clue what they're doing or getting into. Of course there are many in between. There is a whole spectrum of hunters - and sometimes the least deserving get lucky. The truly amazing part (to me) though, is how hard a decent guide will work for anyone, and how easy they can make it look for even the clueless. I have the highest regard for a decent guide or PH.

Actually, I believe the reason many guides/PH's like to take clients after dangerous game is that they often get to shoot too! In fact in many places it is REQUIRED that the guide shoot if there is any chance the animal may get away wounded. Since it's not always possible for the guide or client to tell exactly how fatal the first shot was, this is a wise policy, since it beats the hell out of going after a wounded Cape buffalo in the thorns, or a wounded brown bear in the alders.

If it really means a lot to you to be acknowledged as The Killer then it is usually possible to sort out what the first shot did afterwards. I also know several African PH's who, when they are reasonably certain the client's shot was fatal, merely try to break a buffalo down by shooting it in the pelvis before it gets into some thick stuff.

All these policies are designed to protect clients, even vain clients. PH's and guides tend to get in a lot of trouble when their clients gets bashed or bitten.

As for the TV show that started this thread, I have done enough TV to know that what's shown in the 20 minutes or so between commercials is only a minor fraction of the entire story, especially when a 1-2 week hunt has to be compressed into TV time.

I would also suggest that a great many people who have dreamed of a hunt for decades often can't afford it until they are not as healthy and agile as they were when younger. Perhaps Dbone might be interested in passing legislation to ban all hunting by people who don't meet his personal standards. Of course, a proposal like that might really catch on, to the point where the Hunting Police might decide that Dbone isn't good enough either.

Not everyone is the athlete at 65 they were at 25. Lets look at the "average" situation here to try and absorb some of the bigger picture.

Most if not all the "wealthy" I have taken in my life have gotten to that point after a lifetime of hard work. Most have married, had a family, most have large families and put all the kids through private school and college. Most of the wealthy appreciate the need for a great education.

Most have worked long hours, and spent considerable time building a career or personal business. Countless hours and weekends and time away from home to bring the level of wealth and security to the family they love. They provided a huge home, cars, dorm rooms, tuition and nice things with this money and effort. By the time they have put all of them through college and the kids have all gone off to live on their own, and start their own lives. The many years of sitting behind a desk, managing business, caring for others, including family and employees has taken it's physical toll on their body.

Most of the really wealthy have not spent countless hours in a Gym, but in the office doing the work and running the business. So by the time they finally get to the point that they can do something for themselves in the later years of their lives they are no longer in the shape and fitness that they were in their 20s 30s and 40's. When they have done everything right in their lives and have lived completely unselfish and have finely made it to the point that they can do this, should they say........ wow everyone will think I'm a rich old lazy fool and need some PH to lead me by the hand to do this hunt. Or should they take some of that hard earned cash from wise investments to make this hunt of their dreams. Especially after all they have done for countless other people including family friends, the church, and the employees they have made jobs for?

One day I will also be old and unable to be as fit and functional as I am now. I'm sure I will still like to hunt with my son. I sure hope that nobody looks down at me when I have to be helped into a shooting platform and have somebody hand me up the rifle, and they criticize me for shooting over a pond or corn feeder because it's all I can manage.

If there was a fault with this video, it was that they chose this hunt to film rather then a more exciting example. But when we have the money to develop the films made for TV we can make them anyway we like. Until then we will watch what those people willing to risk there own money on these investments put on for us.

Wonderful...jorge

All I can offer is a sample of one. I was lucky enough to book a 21 day hunt for Jumbo in Chewore when I was 38 and in reasonably good shape.

A typical day involved using every second of available daylight to either look for, or follow spoor. Initially the land Cruiser was the principal conveyance, to get a general feel for where the animals were in the 1/2 mil acres of hunting block. But after a couple of days we dismounted to explore vast areas which are inaccessible by vehicle.

An average day involved 12-15 Km on foot in some pretty rugged terrain. But there were at least 2 days on which we put 30 clicks on the shoe leather, and another of 20. Let's just say my blisters had blisters. We saw plenty of spoor, and plenty of elephant, but nothing we wanted to shoot.

Finally, on day 17, I dropped the hammer on a bull at about 20 yards. Yes, 20. Elephant have lousy eyesight, so if you're VERY quiet, and stay down wind, you can get that close. As luck would have it, on the 18th day, we saw a much larger bull.
But, hey, that's why it's called hunting.

I've read and heard enough stories about ele hunts that end on the first afternoon with the client walking 50 yds from the truck and potting a 60 pounder, then spending the next 20 days absorbing scotch and apocrypha around the fire pit, to know it happens.

But, in the end, a Safari is what you and your PH make of it. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess that can be said for any hunting.

My .02
Pete

"Most if not all the "wealthy" I have taken in my life have gotten to that point after a lifetime of hard work. Most have married, had a family, most have large families and put all the kids through private school and college. Most of the wealthy appreciate the need for a great education."

thanks Jim for a great post that sums it up for alot of us.
Steve

Ingwe, I got lucky I averaged about two pounds per mile of walking in the bush.

And while I am not too old or too out of shape, I don't care what anyone thinks about my elephant hunt.

It feels great, I'd kill 50 if I could (and I amy try.)

josh

The Elephant in my Avatar is only about average but took up 9 HARD and hot days of a scheduled 10 day hunt. The moment I shot and dropped him with no need for an assist was a thrill I can still remember today with great joy.

I nearly succumbed to heat exhaustion on a Lion hunt in 120 degree weather few years ago. This trip would have been literally deadly for an older out of shape business man.

I have hunted and taken game of all manner here in the US including Elk and Bear and know what it is to track and hunt and freeze and gut and skin and pack etc. But I LOVE the comfortable camps and hunting cars and hunting style's of Africa as well.
They are all good. Different, but good.

When I was in the hunt booking business it was more common for my Safari client to be the aforementioned middle aged guy who only late in life can now make it happen than a younger hunter. Thank God for those guys and what they bring to the African hunting communities and regions! And I am SO glad to have played a part in helping them make dreams come true. Many are still good friends even though I am currently out of that Biz.

Elephant hunting is a dream for many, and a reality for few. It takes a lot of time, and a lot of money. God bless anyone who has that dream and gets to fulfill it. I was able to make it a reality when I was in my mid 30's only through a set of fortunate circumstances. I humped many a mile and ate a ton of dust. I snuck into a herd of cows and calfs just to look around. With a favorable wind, I stood within 20 yards of several elephant, and within 50 yards of more than a dozen! That is a thrill beyond words.

I took my bull on the last day of the hunt, and it was almost anti climactical. We rode a trail and happened upon the path of some bulls that were feeding and tearing down trees. I had to stalk less than 1/2 a mile to catch them. If that part was all you saw of my elephant hunt, you'd draw some pretty vague conclusions about it too, but there was so much more to the story.

Filming a hunt is another whole set of problems tracking the bush with a cameraman and sound man with a boom mic.

I watched Boddington work with is film crew this year in Argentina, and will tell you right now that they put in long days for film that probably will see very little surviving editing. You can hunt, you can film, but it is damn hard to do both.

Dbone, it's time for you to squirrel away some cash and save up for a proper guided buffalo hunt, Cape buffalo in Zambia, Zimbabwe, or Tanzania, or NW buffalo or Forest Buffalo in Cameroon. You grab your rifle and follow your PH and some of the most outstanding wildlife trackers in the world as they take you bush so thick that visibility is down to an arms length. Go with the pygmies in the rain forest and track bongo in and out of streams, along the forest floor where it dark and moist. Have the Masai walk you through thorns that rip your canvas shirts and make their skin bleed as they point out a sleeping shadow 14 yards away that you can't recognize as a bull waking to get up and charge,

Do these things and you'll have a whole different opinion of guided hunts. No matter how good you or I might think we are in the field, we'd starve in places where the BaTonga would grow obese off the land.

I hope I'm fit enough at 65 + to continue on in the bush. Age is not kind to everyone, and you seem to have a young man's view of the world. Father Time will kick your ass soon enough. I'm 48 and can still run a 10K race in 60 minutes and bench press 305. I also get strange and weird tendonitis in places that shouldn't hurt, and I've had 4 cortisone injections in the last three years. I've got bone spurs in my right shoulder from my short lived baseball career, and a little arthritis in my left ankle from doing something stupid years ago that involved Jim Beam. Things aren't going to be better in 20 years. Should my health decline as I age, I want the choice to hunt on as best as I can without judgement from neophytes. I hope to take my grandkids, should I be so blessed, afield. If the best I can do is ride around in a truck and walk 1/4 mile at the most, so be it. That is not lazy, that might just be reality.

So for all of you Nimrods that have hit retirement age, and still hunt hard, my hat is off to you. (Jorge, your retirement doesn't count. Too young-back to work). Dbone, you might want to rethink your criticism, and put it in context. Should you work diligently and save 50K or more for a hunt, you might just be 65 years old by then. Age may deal you you unpleasant surprises. Should you be denied the chance to go afield without having judgement passed on your condition? Hunting is not a macho contest. Your balls won't swell and your cock won't grow because you can bivouac in the Artic at -40�C and can wrestle a musk ox to the ground and slit it's throat in the manor of Apocalypse Now. No, I won't pass judgement on a guy who is older and can't walk much anymore than I will pass judgement on a young dude that sits his ass in a tree to take a whitetail.

Josh; I haven't hunted elephant...been around enough of them, but never had the urge to hunt them...just a personal choice..
But I did have QUITE the hunt for Cape Buffalo, killing one the last 20 minutes of daylight of day 14....of a 14 day hunt...
I think I logged up about a mile per OUNCE of buffalo horn....
When I read the OP I was wishing Dbone coulda been with me crawling on my belly in riverine jess, staring at buffalo ankles 15 yds away cause its all we could see....
Then he could have also puckered up with us as we had a little dispute with a couple lions over whose Buffalo it really was...
Damn those easy guided hunts anyway!!!

Ingwe

Ingwe,

Your story reminded me of when a pride of Lions broke into our corrugated steel meat hut at 2:00 AM and ate Buffalo meat only a short distance from where we slept! Hearing a metal shed, 2x4's and all come apart with ease and large Cape Buffalo bones being crunched like scooby snacks made the Mag Light and 44 Magnum in my sweating hands feel pretty puny, but I was NOT about to put them down!

Piece of cake.....

Oh, by the way to the original posters question.... To be able to bring up a family of five as the singe wage earner on straight commision sales and put them through Christian schools including Ecola bible college and then going on a dream hunt or two feels GREAT!!!!

Ingwe, I figure we walked a good 50 miles. My wife was along and I seriously thought about asking her to carry my rifle. If you kill elephant with your feet I should have brought home two.

On a side note when we got home my secretary asked me why I killed an elephant, I told her they weren't commiting suicide anymore.

regards,
josh