Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats .280 AI BRASS QUESTION

Hi Folks,
In my other post about the .280 Ackley Improved a couple of folks mentioned necking Winchester .270 cases up to .30 caliber then back down to .284 to acquire good brass and avoid dealing with the Nickel .280 Rem. brass Winchester is currently making.

I was wondering if you could simplify the process a bit by necking down Winchester .30/06 brass to .284 or are their length and neck issues that arise thru such a process?

Thanks for the help,

HBB

What's the matter with Winchester nickle? It fireforms superbly, shoots little-bitty groups and lasts friggin' forever. Besides that, it feeds like quicksilver.



Yeah, Winchester nickle is not going to be a subject of conversation when guys talk about their cartridge conversion experiences. After all, you don't have to neck it down (risking neck concentricity problems); all you have to do is load it up with a fast powder/heavy bullet combination and fire it.



Just too simple.



Steve

Steve,
How difficult is it to use the nickel case for the .280 AI?

I had some nickel .300 Win cases that were a pain in the posterior to get to resize to where they would easily chamber in my rifle and several wound up with squatted necks.

I know several other folks that have had the same problem

Where are we screwing up?

Thanks for the help,

HBB

I'm with Dogzapper on this one. My .280 Ackley digests the Winchester .280 Remington nickel cases without any problems and they feed VERY well. Listen to DZ on any question about the .280 Ackley; he knows what he is talking about.

HBB,

I don't know, I can only tell you what I have experienced.

I suspect the problem could be with either the chamber or the resizing die. My chambers are safe-minimum, just like most intellegent gunsmiths would use. The chambers are straight with the bore (usually double-dial indicated) and round, with no chatter marks. Hey, part of the fun of having a custom rifle is being able to work with a perfect chamber.

In loading dies, I very seldom use a full-length sizer. I use Redding Type-S neck sizers with a bushing that will size the neck to just "kiss" the t/c floating expander button on the way out of the die. Basically, the custom chamber has .003" expansion and my neck sizing does minimal work, when the case needs to be handloaded.

When a lot of cases gets hard to chamber, I have a little trick. Usually it is the BASE of the case that is causing the chambering problem and F/L dies suck in addressing this. I use a tungsten-carbide .45 ACP sizing die to iron out the base and return it to original dimensions. This usually works like a charm and I see no reason for buggering with cases (and using lube) when a simple process will usially give better results.

Steve

PS. If you have .223-bases cases that need resizing, try a .38/.357 tungsten-carbide sizer to return the bases to dims. Works. ST

Steve,
The chamber may very well be the culprit. The rifle (two of them in fact) I was using that gave the trouble was a straight factory gun as were the rifles that my compatriots experienced trouble with.

Thanks for info on the tungsten carbide dies. I would have had never thought of something like that.

Could this process, especially the .38/357 one, be applied to other cases of the same headsize (i.e. .204 Ruger for the .38/357 and .30/06 for the .45 acp)

Thanks for the insights,

HBB

Yes, the .45 ACP tungsten-carbide sizing die can be used to size down the base of any .308/30-'06-based case. The .38/.357 t-c sizzing die can be used on any .222/223 based case.

A lot has been made in the literature about "setting back the shoulder" and sizing all of the case. My experience has been that the problem is not with the shoulder and it is not with the majority of the case surface; it is a problem with the base being just one bpc (blonde pubic hair) too large.

My experience has been that full-length sizing dies do not size bases very well. The .45ACP sizing die is perfect for the job because a .45 ACP is simply a chopped-off .30-'06 case. It's job is to address the exact area of the case that concerns us.

Probably five or six years ago, I was having trouble dealing with three .223 Ackley chambers. They were all cut with the same reamer and two were interchangeable. One chamber was a nano tight in the other two.

I knew the 45 ACP trick and wondered if there was a pistol case die that would work with the .223 Ackley. I checked case dims and the virgin .223 case measures .372". Then, I measured the ID of my .38/.357 sizing die and it was .3715".

I tried it and the cases don't even feel like they are sizing. The bases are just polished a bit. The great thing is that when I use the t-c die, cases from all three of my .223 Ackley chambers interchange.

I've used the .45 ACP and the 38/357 tungsten-carbide sizing die on thousands of cases over the years. It returns old cases that are just a bit too tight to be used in the hunting field into youngsters.

Great trick...I've never written about it, but I should have.

SEE? Your 24HourCampfire membership just got you something that probably isn't in print. It pays to hang out with us old farts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve

Steve,
What is the exact measurement of one "blonde pubic hair"? More importantly how did you manage to get these precise dimensions? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for the brass sizing info. You should write it up. This concept has the makings of a nice series of articles.

Good Shooting,


HBB

HBB,

A BPC (Blonde Pubic Hair) is a very, very small measurement. It's so small that you can't see it and sometimes can't measure it. I know that this is technical jargon, but I think that you are up to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wrote an article in 1998, entitled "The Experiences of a Handloading Veteran." Basically, the article was a bunch of small stuff. None of the subjects was, in itself, enough for an article, but considered together they gave the reader a lot of knowledge.

Stuff like: Does accuracy suffer if cases within a lot vary in length? (Hint: Nope) Do pulled bullets shoot as well as virgin ones? (Hint: Sometimes actually shoot better; surely, no worse) Do you always have to seat tight to the leade, or do different rifles have individual preferences? (Hint: You gotta mess with it) A really good trick that everyone can do in bullet seating to greatly increase loaded-round concentricity. (Hint: Seat the bullet halfway; turn the round 180 degrees and finish the seating stroke) Stuff like that and a lot more.

Anyway, the readers liked it and I got a lot of previously unpublished info into the readers hands (which is, after all, what good writing is all about).

When (if) I re-enter the writing thing again, another such article would be good.

Steve

Always think of the worse when dealing with wildcats or AI cartridges: Some fool in the future may take a 280 AI that is formed from 270 brass and try to chamber it in a 270. Bad news if this act is successful.

I use 280 Rem brass, one shot and it is fire formed, no necking up or any other forming problems.

Be sure the new chamber is cut 4 or 5 thou short, so when a 280 case is chambered, you will have some resistance on the bolt closure.

All of the above is perfect advice.

About the Ackley chamber being cut with a headspace .004" to .005" short of the headspace for the standard .280 Remington; again, perfect advice. You need the shoulder "jam" to insure that .280 Remington cases will fire.
I wish EVERY gunsmith understood this.

Steve

hillbillybear, the more checking around you do, the less you will hear about nickel cases. These opinions that they are the ultimate to use will not be heard from knowledgable smiths. Tell me if I am wrong. Sorry to go against the grain here but I have to. Don`t do it. The .004" inch short of std headspace is called a "crush" fit, this is correct. If your chamber is not set up this way you can have case head separation upon fireforming. You can be assured that Coleman rifles is totally aware of this. I stand by my suggestion to use 270 brass, if Winchester headstamp is your desire. Ask Mr. Coleman his opinion and do as he suggests. After all he is more informed than most.

Steve,
Thanks for the insights on the highly technical nature of BPH. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good Shooting,
HBB

Just another slant on the nickled case.
When I aquired my standard .280 Win. (years ago), I ordered 100 of the then-new nickel "match" cases. My reasoning was that they would be slicker, purdier, and maybe be less likely to pick up debris, which would decrease the likelihood of scratching case, chamber or sizing die.
All went according to plan, and they did everything I expected. Then I had to pull some bullets from loads that proved to be a tad optimistic. The portion of the bullet that had been seated in the case came out looking like it had been scrubbed with VERY coarse sandpaper. The nickel flash inside the casemouth was scratching hell out of the bullets! I tried re-chamfering casemouths, polishing with various brass & stainless neck brushes, even a bit of crocus cloth on a dowel... Nothing worked. That stuff is HARD! I think I still have one box that has never been through a sizer. It introduced a problem I didn't need. That's not saying it couldn't be fixed, just that I didn't get it done.
They do look kinda cool, though, when you turn the necks... Two-toned brass! Just be prepared to replace the cutter on your neck turner, when you're done.

John and Tim,
Thanks for the insights into the brass issues. If I use the .270 neck up method I'll definitely carefully segregate the brass to prevent its use in a .270

Good Shooting,
HBB

Steve,

That advice re: using 45ACP & 357 Carbide pistol dies is real smart. Will the Lee 45ACP sizing die work? We can get those here pretty easy & they are very reasonable priced.

I want to use it on my 25-06.

Pardon my ignorance as I have never loaded any handgun ammo or used handguns much at all. But I always thought pistol dies would be too short for rifle cases?

Heck the depth of knowledge on this site is astounding!

Good one Steve.

Regards
JohnT

I have cut several thousand nickel cases and have never had to replace the cutter. Did 800 38 Special at one sitting. The cutter is still going strong after about 20 years service. I read these statements about what nic brass will do to dies , cutters, etc. But I have been using the same set of 38/357 dies for over 20 years and the RCBS cutter is still doing service and cuts as smoothly as ever. Necks of nic brass will scratch the sides of bullets but in a hunting rifle it makes no difference in accuracy. I have two rifles in which I use nic brass and regular brass to keep loads seperated. The loads are a little different but both shoot the same group size.Rick.

I'm guilty of having shot lotsa nickle hulls,despite conventional thinking shunning that very notion.

I like the looks and have had luck with it in some chamberings,trouble with it in others,especially in Improved chambers. My opinion is that some lots of nickled cases are simply better than others(like most everything else) and that the crapshoot isn't worth it,when forming hulls in a typical Improved chamber.

My Nickle Luck isn't worth a hoot in my 25-06AI. I bought a coupla hundred virgin hulls and had high hopes of great results and some stunning eye candy with 100gr XLC's. The hulls shot great when forming,but I suffered apparent adhesion issues with the nickle itself and it flaked/peeled on a goodly percentage of the cases. Cutting to the chase,I simply [bleep] the formed stuff and gave the balance of the virgin stuff,to a SAMMI 25-06 totin' pard. We was/is both happy.

I love nickle in my K-Hornets,due to lubricity and of course it's sinister good looks. Have had fair to middlin' luck with it in my 223AI's and have one rifle that shoots it expressly(the 18lb BIG 223AI),with superlative "luck".

Were I starting from scratch,I'd bite the bullet,resist the eye candy temptation and shoot Plain Jane brass hulls.

I hear brass hulls also shoot well.....................(grin)

John,

I'm unfamiliar with the Lee. My tungsten-carbide pistol dies are old RCBS ones.

My t-c dies are just open, single dies that size the case only. There is no gear in the center; no depriming punch, no expander rod/ball, no nothin'.

Obviously, the majority of the rifle case must pass through the die and out the top end, so this type of die is ideal.

Hope I answered your question, John.

My best, Steve.

PS. For any doubters; The Lone Ranger used silver bullets, but he also shot Winchester nickel cases. Nickel cases shoot farther, shoot flatter, kill game better, and give me little-bitty groups in the .280 Ackley. NICKEL CASES ROCK. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[quote
I'm unfamiliar with the Lee. My tungsten-carbide pistol dies are old RCBS ones.

My t-c dies are just open, single dies that size the case only. There is no gear in the center; no depriming punch, no expander rod/ball, no nothin'.

[/quote]

I have a bunch of Lee carbide dies at home and can check.

Steve -- I assume you perform this step after sizing. Do you do it before or after adjusting how much the regular die sizes the case, i.e. do you play with bumping the shoulder first?

John